Thoughts on BEBA

[Old Timer]

Started this new thread because the other BEBA thread is getting longish and I don`t want it lost amongst that.

First of all can I just say that I`m in general in favour of an organisation that will look after my and other e bikers rights and make buying an e bike a safer more pleasurable experience.

Concerns.
Will the BEBA actually have teeth? or be like so many organisations that are there on an advisory basis asking dealers who haven`t quite come up to spec to pull their fingers out or will they actually be able to step in and take control of a dispute with maybe a central pool of money and resource to take over when things go wrong? If you look at some of the major players in things like domestic power etc they never seem to be able to get the public the right deal and just seem to sit on the sidelines without being able to really bring down the cosh.

Concerns
I, like so many other e bikers dipped my toe into electric cycling with the purchase of (so called) economy cheap end of the market E bikes. Frowned on by the established suppliers these companies do provide a point in the trade where we can try out and decide if it is for us or not. I did just that and have no doubt now that i have discovered just how enjoyable E biking is that one day I will almost certainly purchase a more expensive bike from a BEBA dealer (possibly Wisper) but would I have got that far if I had to make a pretty hefty outlay to start with??? maybe not, and that could mean the big players missing out on my future business and shooting themselves in the foot. Is the forming of this organisation based around controlling what is on the market and pushing us towards the cartel??? where we will be forced more or less to pay the going rate or stay out of the water?

(reminds me, I must send an E mail to jim at alien to ascertain if they are BEBA members) which actually is a good point because there we have entry level bikes of generally great value with good back up. Will £500 bikes like them be pushed out of the market?

Let me just say that after running a business for 30 some years I understand fully how the market leaders and innovators would want/need to protect their position and thats fine just as long as it doesn`t take away the choice from the man/woman in the street.

This post is not put up to stir up trouble or feelings but is a genuine concern when anything as life changing as BEBA appears on the horizon. I`m not foolish enough to think that the forming of BEBA isn`t linked to securing a more stable future or turnover for it`s members and I understand that just as long as the buying public are still left with choice and not pushed out onto the edges if they don`t conform and be made to feel like the underdogs.

Posted completely with an open mind and with no malice what so ever and inviting comments from BEBA and E bikers alike

Regards

Dave

 

[NRG]

It's possible Alien won't join Dave:

BEBA Key Members may use the "BEBA Member" logo and will be eligible to be elected onto the BEBA council. The council will control BEBA’s initiatives, direction and goals.

Key Members must agree to and be able to demonstrate that they:

1. Only make sales through dealers / retailers or directly to the end user through flagship stores and not exclusively online

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Beba

Thanks Dave for starting the thread.

We totally understand your concerns and quite frankly would be worried if there were not questions being asked.

BEBA has not been set up to be either protectionist or elitist and I hope our code of practice demonstrates that.

Regarding Alien, we would welcome them with open arms as long as they were not an internet only supplier. We at BEBA believe to service an electric bike properly and to support customers there must be a physical premises at which customers can go to test ride a bike, have the bike safety checked and serviced and if things go wrong a real person in a real shop where a customer can go and get some help.

We agree that there are good entry level bikes on the market and I promise we understand how important it is to the higher end bike manufacturers that the less expensive choices are out there, indeed we at Wisper will be launching a range of "Spirit" bikes in the near future which will retail at under £900.00. (Sorry about the plug! )

We welcome any questions and would be delighted to answer tham here in open forum.

Best regards

David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Code of Practice

BEBA Key Members may use the "BEBA Member" logo and will be eligible to be elected onto the BEBA council. The council will control BEBA’s initiatives, direction and goals.

Key Members must agree to and be able to demonstrate that they:

1. Only make sales through dealers / retailers or directly to the end user through flagship stores and not exclusively online

2. Manufacture or have the UK exclusive agency to a recognised brand of electric bicycle

3. Have an after sales support program available to all dealers

4. Hold a full spare parts inventory to enable on-going support for product in the market

5. Do not manufacture / distribute electric bikes that the BEBA board determine to be replicas

6. Only market models that meet the current legal requirements

7. Offer full technical training to retail outlets

8. Provide retailers with marketing materials

9. Provide retailers with manuals for all bikes

10. Provide full service literature

11. Offer an effective complaints procedure to the end user


BEBA Retail members may use the "BEBA Retailer" logo and will be listed on the BEBA web site as BEBA approved retailers. Retail members should:

1. Stock at least one brand of electric bike from a Key member of BEBA

2. Be technically capable and have the facilities to maintain any electric bicycle they retail

3. Hold or have immediate access to a full spare parts inventory to enable on-going support for product in the market

4. Commit to having at least one BEBA Key members electric bike in store for demo at all times

5. Not retail electric bikes that the BEBA board determine to be replicas

6. Agree to PDI all electric bikes

7. Be prepared to co operate with BEBA in resolving any customer dispute bought to the attention of the BEBA committee

 

[alex_h]

Thoughts on Beba- something is wrong in here

Hi All

Following on both posts re thoughts on BEBA and I have to say I couldn’t agree more with Dave! I’m also in huge favour of having a best practice organisation within the industry but not the one that was set up by manufacturers of certain brands to protect their own interest and, what’s even more appalling, to ensure that they would do anything to eliminate any competition, including creating a dictatorial COP. Shouldn’t you be looking at protecting consumers rather than your own interest?

You said that your COP demonstrates that BEBA was not set up to be either protectionist or elitist but it doesn’t seem to be the case to me!

I would refer here to a few points from your Code of Practice which clearly show and UNfair business case:
Rules for members:
1. Sales only through dealers not exclusively online? – as long as online seller provides customer with option of being able to see / try the item and has a good return policy, why should online selling be a problem? Is it because all of they key brands have already established a network of dealers and only new market entrants start from selling purely online? This automatically rules out, for example, 50Cycles & Kalkhoff brand, Alien Bikes, and Synergy Bikes. A golden rule for eliminating competition?
2. BEBA - organisation for recognised brands only? Well, that clearly shows that this ‘independent’ organisation would block any new market entrants, no matter how good products they sell, purely as they don’t represent recognised brands (and you surely know from your own experience that building brand awareness does take time). I thought that becoming a member of an industry association should depend on whether you conform to certain standards (ie safety norms), not whether you are well known or not, but clearly that’s the case with BEBA….
Rules for retailers
1 & 4. Retailers to stock at least one brand from key members? So you can use the logo of our ‘independent’ organisation only if you sell our products meaning you are either with us or against?
5. Retailers not to sell replicas? I’m absolutely against copy products but I have an impression that in your opinion any other bike that looks like, …er…. bike (with just a vague resemblance to yours), is a replica of yours. And as you would have a decisive voice as to whether a certain brand is a replica or not, soon the suppliers carrying BEBA logo wouldn’t be able to make their own choice and sell anything else that’s not one of they key brands, as all other bikes would surely be branded ‘replicas’.

Is the above what you call a fair business case? I would rather call it threatening suppliers, promoting your own brands only, and making sure that customers who will wrongly believe that BEBA is an independent standard organisation, will face limited / restricted choice of brands as certain products will not be available in many retail providers because of your anti-competition rules. Most of the consumers would automatically associate an industry body as an independent organisation and I’m sure most of them would get quite pissed off if they found out that what seems to be an independent body was only set up to protect the interests of key manufacturers and make sure that consumers would not have wide access to other but key brands.
I understand promoting your own business but doing it by misleading customers and restricting free and fair competition is simply unethical!


To sum up I’d really like to see an independent organisation in this industry – not the one like yours that really sucks!

regards

Alex

 

[Old Timer]

Thanks Dave for starting the thread.

We totally understand your concerns and quite frankly would be worried if there were not questions being asked.

BEBA has not been set up to be either protectionist or elitist and I hope our code of practice demonstrates that.

Regarding Alien, we would welcome them with open arms as long as they were not an internet only supplier. We at BEBA believe to service an electric bike properly and to support customers there must be a physical premises at which customers can go to test ride a bike, have the bike safety checked and serviced and if things go wrong a real person in a real shop where a customer can go and get some help.

We agree that there are good entry level bikes on the market and I promise we understand how important it is to the higher end bike manufacturers that the less expensive choices are out there, indeed we at Wisper will be launching a range of "Spirit" bikes in the near future which will retail at under £900.00. (Sorry about the plug! )

We welcome any questions and would be delighted to answer tham here in open forum.

Best regards

David

Thanks for coming back( I really do feel that your responses in general are what has made wisper a class leader and the reason why so many discerning E bikers turn to wisper with confidence)

As far as alien are concerned a member on here has actually been to the warehouse/showroom to check out there bikes and purchased one after a demo and I know of several people (inc myself) who has spoken the there resident engineer about small things. Now that Bob has taken over synergie I would expect even more customer care and service and i know they have plans for the future which might hopefully include a retail outlet. I think that their location might have hindered this in the past. A showroom or dealers further south would IMHO further enhance their customer base. I think(judging by my dealings) they deserve to be part of the gang.(I`ve got room for a demo bike Bob

A sub £900 wisper can only be good news for E bikers and Wisper and can`t wait to see them when they arrive.(great news)

I do get the feeling that you (David)have realised just how big the e bike market could grow to in the UK and must admit if something hadn`t been done then it might well have become a mess and a turkey shoot. I just hope it all goes to plan and we (the end user) will have someone that we can complain to if things go wrong and know that you care. My customer base over the years rarely had a problem with my company and services (problem being the ultimate word) because I jumped on any complaints how ever small right from the start and stopped it becoming a barrier for future orders (which I`ve seen you do on this forum)

So! I must admit after thinking about it and airing my thoughts I`m starting to feel that I would get better looked after with someone like you at the healm( I`m not bum licking BTW , I never do that)but just saying how i feel.

thanks again for responding

Dave

 

[flecc]

50cycles are definitely not ruled out as Alex inferred, they have a shop/showroom outlet, full and praiseworthy spares backup and can easily fulfil membership requirements.

I'm confident that there is no attempt at undesirable exclusion, the restrictions are solely in consumer's interests.

In this day and age, cartels are impossible in an industry like ours, the freedoms of internet trading rule out any posibility of attempting one. Consumers will always be able to buy from non-BEBA members as much as they wish, if they desire going without the protections offered.

BEBA's aim is the widest possible membership and they are earnestly pursuing that at present, but they are not prepared to sacrifice consumer interests to achieve that. As a consumer I welcome that.
.

 

[Alex728]

As far as alien are concerned a member on here has actually been to the warehouse/showroom to check out there bikes and purchased one after a demo and I know of several people (inc myself) who has spoken the there resident engineer about small things. Now that Bob has taken over synergie I would expect even more customer care and service and i know they have plans for the future which might hopefully include a retail outlet. I think that their location might have hindered this in the past. A showroom or dealers further south would IMHO further enhance their customer base. I think(judging by my dealings) they deserve to be part of the gang.(I`ve got room for a demo bike Bob

I told a load of Scottish folk on another forum about Alien and they said they knew of the factory and they were good bikes (I think some of them were getting bikes). One lass said she lived quite near their factory/showroom.

 

[Patrick]

Here are my thoughts for what they’re worth.

“5. Do not manufacture / distribute electric bikes that the BEBA board determine to be replicas”

The problem with this is that without a definition of “replica” it gives the board the right to refuse membership based on the board’s opinion. No matter how good your intentions this is not a good situation.

One way round it would be to publish an objective set of criteria to determine if a model is a replica. The criteria need to be clear enough so that if a member or prospective member disagreed with the board’s decision the criteria could in principle be given to an independent body to decide if it’s a replica. It may be that in practice you decide that the board’s decision is final, in which case the published criteria would be an important part of making the board’s decision making process transparent.

“6. Only market models that meet the current legal requirements”

If a manufacturer made a bike that they believed met the current legal requirements but which the members of the board of the BAEB believed didn’t meet the requirements would they be allowed to join? If not then you’ve got the same situation as with number 5, the board being able to refuse membership based on opinion.

If the aim of the BEBA is to promote quality eclectic bikes in general rather than specifically promoting the bikes of the BEBA Key Members then there’s no justification for insisting that BEBA Retail Members stock BEBA Key Members’ bikes. It’s not in the consumers’ interests to bar a good e-bike retailer who provides excellent service from membership just because he happens to stock the wrong make of bikes.

 

[flecc]

“5. Do not manufacture / distribute electric bikes that the BEBA board determine to be replicas”

“6. Only market models that meet the current legal requirements”

If a manufacturer made a bike that they believed met the current legal requirements but which the members of the board of the BAEB believed didn’t meet the requirements would they be allowed to join? If not then you’ve got the same situation as with number 5, the board being able to refuse membership based on opinion.

Since attempted exclusion on the grounds of either of these can be challenged at law, BEBA's opinion is not the final arbiter. They would need to take care that any decision did not run the risk of legal challenge.

If the aim of the BEBA is to promote quality eclectic bikes in general rather than specifically promoting the bikes of the BEBA Key Members then there’s no justification for insisting that BEBA Retail Members stock BEBA Key Members’ bikes. It’s not in the consumers’ interests to bar a good e-bike retailer who provides excellent service from membership just because he happens to stock the wrong make of bikes.

This doesn't exclude members from stocking any electric bike. The requirement is only that they include stocking one key member brand. Since e-bike retailers generally stock a number of makes and need one major name at least, and BEBA aims to have the largest possible number of key members, effectively there is no restriction.

The run of the mill bicycle retailers who happen to stock the one type of e-bike made by the brand they sell as normal bikes, Giant for example, quite probably wouldn't be bothered about BEBA membership anyway. The type of customer they pick up is also unlikely to be aware of BEBA.

The rules have been put up here for comment before finalisation, so there's no barring yet. In this connection, rules (1) and (4) have to be amended since they both refer to associate membership. In fact the original inclusion of an associate membership level was removed, since a rule was included that BEBA realised could be unfairly restrictive. This shows their awareness of the importance of this issue.
.

 

[alex_h]

50cycles are definitely not ruled out as Alex inferred, they have a shop/showroom outlet, full and praiseworthy spares backup and can easily fulfil membership requirements.

Yes Flecc, you are right 50Cycles has clearly shown the A-top level of service over the past few years but these guys have one showroom just like many other online retailers such as Synergy or Alien. Overall they are exclusive in the UK and sell mainly online. In that case if BEBA was to follow their golden rule 50 Cycles , Alien and Synergy would be already out. From my point of view that is not right and it's down to the service/return policy how the retailers sorts out the problem with their customer.

I'm confident that there is no attempt at undesirable exclusion, the restrictions are solely in consumer's interests.

In this day and age, cartels are impossible in an industry like ours, the freedoms of internet trading rule out any posibility of attempting one. Consumers will always be able to buy from non-BEBA members as much as they wish, if they desire going without the protections offered.

Yes sure, cartels won't exist and you are right here but what frustrates me so much is the fact that BEBA founders are indeed creating organistation that will promote their own brands over the others and not the overall promotion of the industry as such. In the rules they just proposed they are clearly showing their own interests. The rule about retailers is clearly a dictating condition to the retailers and narrowing of a choice as to what the customer can buy. It's the customer who should choose which brand to buy. If buy a BEBA brand then you get a back up from external orginisation fine, but give the option to buy the other brand as well and leave the final choice to the buyer. If BEBA retailer can not stock brands that are excluded by BEBA then it's a bullying and dictating the rules. BEBA should rather look at the fact of bikes being sutable for riding and roadworthy

BEBA's aim is the widest possible membership and they are earnestly pursuing that at present, but they are not prepared to sacrifice consumer interests to achieve that. As a consumer I welcome that.

 

[flecc]

I raised the same point about 50cycles with BEBA and they have confirmed that they are definitely not excluded Alex. Indeed they are very keen on 50cycles joining.

The objections would only be fully valid if membership was being unduly restricted. That is definitely not the case, BEBA is seeking the largest possible membership, embracing the great majority of the UK industry.

There is no narrowing of choice as you claim Alex, since there is no rule that stops a retailer selling any brand or type. They are only required to sell one key brand, they can stock whatever they like in addition.

BEBA only seeks to exclude the elements which can and do give the industry a bad name.
.

 

[Alex728]

I don't think 50 cycles or Alien/Synergie were ever "exclusively online". Both have some sort of physical presence which people can and do visit, its just that Alien are way out in Scotland!

Even Wispers are sold online and that is a good thing for those who don't have a local dealer (its how I got mine!)

there's already "tied shops" with normal push bikes (and e-bikes) with Raleigh/cyclelife taking over a lot of LBS's on a franchise basis, although they are not excluded from selling other brands.. I think the rules are only they need to commit to a significant amount of Raleigh bikes... BEBA isn't even anywhere as strict as this!

 

[alex_h]

I don't think 50 cycles or Alien/Synergie were ever "exclusively online". Both have some sort of physical presence which people can and do visit, its just that Alien are way out in Scotland!

Even Wispers are sold online and that is a good thing for those who don't have a local dealer (its how I got mine!)

there's already "tied shops" with normal push bikes (and e-bikes) with Raleigh/cyclelife taking over a lot of LBS's on a franchise basis, although they are not excluded from selling other brands.. I think the rules are only they need to commit to a significant amount of Raleigh bikes... BEBA isn't even anywhere as strict as this!

David just mentioned on the previous page that Alien is not welcome becuase they are internet only based so i assume the same will apply to Synergy aswell. For BEBA one showroom looks like it's not enough to have a physical presence which is the case of Alien.

 

[Alex728]

David just mentioned on the previous page that Alien is not welcome becuase they are internet only based so i assume the same will apply to Synergy aswell. For BEBA one showroom looks like it's not enough to have a physical presence which is the case of Alien.

Alien and Synergie are the same company now. I don't see any regulation on the number of physical showrooms that a BEBA member must have, just that they have one. from what my Scottish friends said its not an insignificant business in that area either.

 

[Patrick]

This doesn't exclude members from stocking any electric bike. The requirement is only that they include stocking one key member brand. Since e-bike retailers generally stock a number of makes and need one or two major names at least, effectively there is no restriction.

The run of the mill bicycle retailers who happen to stock the one type of e-bike made by the brand they sell as normal bikes, Giant for example, quite probably wouldn't be bothered about BEBA membership anyway. The type of customer they pick up is also unlikely to be aware of BEBA.

The rules have been put up here for comment before finalisation, so there's no barring yet. In this connection, rules (1) and (4) have to be amended since they both refer to associate membership. In fact the original inclusion of an associate membership level was removed, since a rule was included that BEBA realised could be unfairly restrictive. This shows their awareness of the importance of this issue.

If the shops who would want to become BEBA Retail Members are going to stock BEBA Key Members' bikes anyway then it won't make any difference if the requirement to carry at least one key member brand is dropped, so why bother having it there at all?

What I had in mind is a local bike shop that sells the odd e-bike and provides good after sales service for all its bikes. One of the main reasons I even thought about getting an ebike is that I often saw them displayed outside just such a shop, and when I came to buy one the fact that I could just wheel it around the corner to get it fixed was a major plus point. This is exactly the type of shop that would benefit most from the support that the BEBA could offer.

I've just noticed a major omission in the Retail Members rules, they don’t say anything about the retailer’s competence help consumers choose the right bike. The BEBA could provide two lots of training materials for sales staff, a basic course covering just the essentials and a more advanced expert course. Something along the lines of the following could then be added to the Retail Members rules:

a) All sales staff must be familiar with the latest BEBA Basic Electric Bicycle Knowledge publication and follow the guidelines for advising customers on bicycle choice.

b) The must be at least one member of staff familiar with the BEBA Advanced Electric Bicycle Knowledge publication who can act as an electric bicycle sales expert.

You could even have two grades of retail membership: ordinary members who follows the above rules and may not have ebikes in stock but can get them in for customers to try, and e-bike specialist retailers where all the sales staff complete the advanced training and there are always electric bikes in stock to try.

Having made sure that the retailers know what they are doing then trust their judgement and leave the completely free to choose which bikes to hold in stock, drop rules 1 and 4 and let the BEBA Key Members bikes compete purely in their own merits. As you pointed out most retailers will stock them anyway.

By the way, thank you David for giving us a chance to stick our oars in and muddy the waters.

 

[alex_h]

Here are my thoughts for what they’re worth.

“5. Do not manufacture / distribute electric bikes that the BEBA board determine to be replicas”

The problem with this is that without a definition of “replica” it gives the board the right to refuse membership based on the board’s opinion. No matter how good your intentions this is not a good situation.

One way round it would be to publish an objective set of criteria to determine if a model is a replica. The criteria need to be clear enough so that if a member or prospective member disagreed with the board’s decision the criteria could in principle be given to an independent body to decide if it’s a replica. It may be that in practice you decide that the board’s decision is final, in which case the published criteria would be an important part of making the board’s decision making process transparent.


I totally agree with Patrick here. I also wonder what criteria BEBA will use to eveluate what is the replica. I think this point should be very well explained by BEBA.

“6. Only market models that meet the current legal requirements”

If a manufacturer made a bike that they believed met the current legal requirements but which the members of the board of the BAEB believed didn’t meet the requirements would they be allowed to join? If not then you’ve got the same situation as with number 5, the board being able to refuse membership based on opinion.

Exactly, by doing so how would you judge what is legal and how. By saying just opinion we could say that A2B Metro does not comply with legal requirements becuase of the off road button.


If the aim of the BEBA is to promote quality eclectic bikes in general rather than specifically promoting the bikes of the BEBA Key Members then there’s no justification for insisting that BEBA Retail Members stock BEBA Key Members’ bikes. It’s not in the consumers’ interests to bar a good e-bike retailer who provides excellent service from membership just because he happens to stock the wrong make of bikes.[/QUOTE]

+1 from me

 

[flecc]

A lot of what you suggest added is desirable Patrick, but as I've said before, give them a chance. There is only so much a newly set up organisation can do, especially in such a tiny industry, better things can come with time and market expansion.

A completely independent organisation of the kind that Alex wishes to see is never going to be possible in the present small marketplace, it has to be set up and run by the industry, no-one else will have the inclination or resources.
.

 

[NRG]

I think the BEBA should broaden their remit to include on-line vendors like Alien who do and have proved they can provide a good service and back-up plus have a physical presence.

Perhaps there needs to be different types of membership, affiliated, associated etc. That reflect the type of business model a member operates because it seems to me it would be grossly unfair and a disservice to the consumer if the only recommended vendors available where those that comply to the narrow remit in place today.

The likes of Alien offer a good product at a competitive price that many customers like but are prepared to accept that support is via telephone and major part warranty is return to base. This type of vendor shouldn't be excluded from the BEBA.

 

[alex_h]

A lot of what you suggest added is desirable Patrick, but as I've said before, give them a chance. There is only so much a newly set up organisation can do, especially in such a tiny industry, better things can come with time and market expansion.

A completely independent organisation of the kind that Alex wishes to see is never going to be possible in the present small marketplace, it has to be set up and run by the industry, no-one else will have the inclination or resources.
.

Do you know what Tony, I just wish to give people a fair opportunity to choose from different suppliers. To me its obvious that customers want to buy a brand that is supported by an industry organistation such as BEBA but in my opinion customers should make their purchase decision on the fact that a product is more competitive because of the price or higher specs comparing to other brands and not just because certain brands have created a fake environment that positions themselves in much better light. If you believe you have a great product you should be able to face a fair competition that is based on the quality of the product and level of customer service and not by creating rules that will eliminate competition.