Thoughts on BEBA

[Tim]

If you believe you have a great product you should be able to face a fair competition that is based on the quality of the product and level of customer service and not by creating rules that will eliminate competition.

This is precisely our position.

We had a meeting with David just a few weeks before BEBA was launched on 28 August, at a nice pub on the Thames. BEBA was not mentioned, nor was there any invitation to join. Maybe it was still a glint in the founding members eyes at that stage, but we've been left wondering about its inclusivity ever since.

 

[flecc]

If you believe you have a great product you should be able to face a fair competition that is based on the quality of the product and level of customer service and not by creating rules that will eliminate competition.

You keep on repeating this myth Alex, no matter how many times you do, it won't make it true.

As I've pointed out, retailers are free to stock any make or model they wish, requiring them to stock a key brand does not prevent them stocking anything else. The "key brand" rule is only there to ensure that consumers are made aware of good e-bikes, not only presented the cheap and nasty stuff.

Since key membership is open to all responsible suppliers who can make e-bikes available for the public to see and try them, there is no exclusion, and in this connection 50cycles have been publicly invited to join BEBA in this forum.*

BEBA has clearly demonstrated that it is not about the self interest of a few, it is mainly concerned with the promotion of e-bikes and e-biking in the UK, and a cursory glance at the founding members illustrates how true that is. For example, Mark at Urban Mover has been very successful at getting e-bikes onto mainstream TV. David at Wisper has spent large sums organising events like the one at the O2 and the New Milton show and has tirelessly promoted them elsewhere. BEBA has also taken over the running of the Presteigne e-bike promotional event, including the founder Pete Mustill in that enterprise.

That is what motivates these people, growing the e-bike market, and they've made it clear that they want as many others as possible to join them in pursuing those promotional aims.

The e-bike market in the UK is pathetic, we have 13% of Europe's population but just 2% of the European e-bike sales. If we want to do something about that, we should be helping BEBA in it's aims, rather than putting the boot in to destroy this fledgling organisation before it's even had a chance.

Those objecting to the rules which attempt to ensure some quality in the market seem to just want to leave the door open to everything and anything. We've had a decade of that sort of trading and it's done extensive damage to the market, thousands of people trying junk market cheap bikes which they abandon after a while as a loss, never to return to e-biking again.

The way forward is the good quality e-bike as Europe's largest market, The Netherlands, amply demonstrates. There the market is almost entirely for quality bikes, Sparta, Koga, Giant, Gazelle, Flyer, Kalkhoff etc, and they sell at over 25 times the rate of UK sales of all kinds, junk included. We need to ensure that quality e-bikes are widely promoted and readily available to the public in the areas the public at large frequent, and a trade organisation to combine and co-ordinate efforts is the best way to achieve that end.

*N.B. This was posted by David Miall in response to Scott at 50cycles:

I am saddened that you don't want to become involved in the British Electric Bicycle Association it has taken a lot of time and effort to set up and will be a great voice in the industry concentrating on the electric bike side of cycling. As a matter of interest BEBA are currently working with ACT on an electric bike training module for the Cytech NVQ and Wisper are currently joining as an associate member. We too believe ACT are doing a fantastic job and want to work with them. I am so sure where the IOD fit in?

BEBA would not dream of trying to tell you how to offer good service or run your company. 50 Cycles certainly now has an excellent record in this respect, otherwise BEBA would not be making the invitation. Amongst BEBA's goals is to inform the public about companies such as 50 Cycles that offer decent legal bikes with a decent level of service.
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[alex_h]

Yes Flecc. I maybe go on and on around the same thing but I wish BEBA to succeed in another way to propose. Believe me that I'm not knocking off this organisation and but truly support its existance and their aims but I rather wish them to create a fair marketplace to everyone. Full stop

Alex

 

[Patrick]

As I've pointed out, retailers are free to stock any make or model they wish, requiring them to stock a key brand does not prevent them stocking anything else. The "key brand" rule is only there to ensure that consumers are made aware of good e-bikes, not only presented the cheap and nasty stuff.

The problem I have with these rules as they stand is that they go beyond what is required to ensure that consumers are presented with quality bikes. Maybe a better approach would be to say that BEBA Retail Members need to stock at least one bike from a supplier who is eligible for BEBA key membership regardless of whether or not they actually join. This would keep the quality control for consumers whilst removing the unintentional commercial advantages to key members.

BEBA has clearly demonstrated that it is not about the self interest of a few, it is mainly concerned with the promotion of e-bikes and e-biking in the UK

For the record, I agree with that statement I have no problem at all with the spirit behind the BEBA rules. I offer my comments as suggestions of ways in which the letter of rules can be made to better reflect this spirit.

 

[flecc]

I rather wish them to create a fair marketplace to everyone. Full stop

Alex

Its fair already!!! As I keep saying, retailers can stay independent and stock anything they like, or join BEBA, stock one key make and still stock anything else they like.

Either way, no make or model is excluded, and the retailer is free to choose.
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[alex_h]

so let Alien and Synergy to join in if its fair

 

[flecc]

The problem I have with these rules as they stand is that they go beyond what is required to ensure that consumers are presented with quality bikes. Maybe a better approach would be to say that BEBA Retail Members need to stock at least one bike from a supplier who is eligible for BEBA key membership regardless of whether or not they actually join. This would keep the quality control for consumers whilst removing the unintentional commercial advantages to key members.

I'm afraid this proposition is fundamentally flawed Patrick. With any such organisation, the threat of losing membership is the restraint against sub-standard performance in a required area like the customer service arena. Eligibility at any level of membership has no such inherent restraint. In addition, how does the consumer know what is eligible, a logo saying someone can join if they want too? Hardly practical.

For the record, I agree with that statement I have no problem at all with the spirit behind the BEBA rules. I offer my comments as suggestions of ways in which the letter of rules can be made to better reflect this spirit.

I have accepted that your suggestions concerning training etc are genuinely attempting to improve the level of what BEBA can achieve in service to the trade and public. It's the rule changing I'm not happy with, since it effectively leaves the door open to carry on as before, just having a BEBA certificate to say that's ok.
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[flecc]

so let Alien and Synergy to join in if its fair

Where do they show their bikes and let the public try them?

Also, I can show very clearly that the service from these two firms has not been satisfactory, and now that they have joined together some unsatisfactory customer service aspects have been left open to question.

If they can now show that they meet the showroom and demonstration requirements, and permanently improve on the present unsatisfactory customer service situation, I'm sure BEBA would be pleased to have this newly combined company as a member.

This is what I'm trying to get you to understand Alex, what you are asking for is for anyone to get into BEBA membership, regardless of what they do, what they stock, or what service they give.

There's no point in having a trade organisation if that is to be the case, is there?
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[NRG]

I have to ask, what 'present unsatisfactory customer service situation' are you referring to?

 

[flecc]

I have to ask, what 'present unsatisfactory customer service situation' are you referring to?

I have posted on this before which is why I refrained from repeating it. However:

Synergie have been unable to supply batteries for their most popular Mistral model to the trade or public for a long while and have given no indication of when or if that might change. Now we learn they are merging into Alien, with no news on their models, batteries or spares continuing.

Alien have said their bikes are suddenly changing to different ones now, not accompanied by any assurances regarding continuing availability of spares, batteries etc.

There's history as well in both cases, but I'm just confining the remarks to the present, this in the context of BEBA eligibility only.
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[alex_h]

I suggest to wait and watch what the board will do next with BEBA. I just hope they change their attitudes and amend some of the controversial points of COP, and also make clearer some of the points that can be interpreted in various ways.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

This is precisely our position.

We had a meeting with David just a few weeks before BEBA was launched on 28 August, at a nice pub on the Thames. BEBA was not mentioned, nor was there any invitation to join. Maybe it was still a glint in the founding members eyes at that stage, but we've been left wondering about its inclusivity ever since.

Hi Tim

I know I speak for all the founder members when I say, we would welcome you and 50 cycles onto the BEBA committee at any time.

As a matter of interest, I sent a draft of the BEBA code of practice to Flecc for his advice before publishing. At that stage there was a third level of membership, the "BEBA Associate Member" this was aimed at companies who predominantly sold over the net. This level excluded such businesses from the main committee, but still involved them in the association. Flecc in his infinite wisdom advised it would exclude 50 Cycles and other professional outfits with decent branded products and good levels of back up from becoming involved at the sharp end. We withdrew the level without a second thought.

I mention this in part to answer Alex's concerns (thanks for your input Alex) the BEBA code of practice is not set in stone, we do not want to exclude anyone who is marketing good legal bikes with the back up and skills needed to properly look after their customers. As more and more manufacturers and distributors join in I am sure we will see tweaks and changes to the original.

Our sincere thanks go to Flecc for his sage advice, as anyone can imagine setting up a trade association is tricky. Without Flecc's input we would have made our forst huge error! All constructive help and advice is warmly welcomed.

Best regards

David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Hi Alex, thanks for you input, it is much appreciated.

Thanks to you too Flecc for explaining our position on these matters, I felt it necessary for me to confirm some points.


Hi All

Following on both posts re thoughts on BEBA and I have to say I couldn’t agree more with Dave! I’m also in huge favour of having a best practice organisation within the industry but not the one that was set up by manufacturers of certain brands to protect their own interest and, what’s even more appalling, to ensure that they would do anything to eliminate any competition, including creating a dictatorial COP. Shouldn’t you be looking at protecting consumers rather than your own interest?

If not from the electric bike industry where exactly should the founders of BEBA have been drawn from? Surely a group of electric bike manufacturers, distributors and and retailers are most qualified? Or maybe we should get a bunch of civil servants on the case?

As for as I know virtually every electric bike importer and manufacturer was invited to the first meeting last summer (with the exception of 50 Cycles which I believe was an error when drawing up the list). Not many attended and from those attendees only four of us have together done all the work in setting BEBA up. Mark drew up the list, I will ask him to let us know who was invited.

You said that your COP demonstrates that BEBA was not set up to be either protectionist or elitist but it doesn’t seem to be the case to me!

I would refer here to a few points from your Code of Practice which clearly show and UNfair business case:

Rules for members:

1. Sales only through dealers not exclusively online? – as long as online seller provides customer with option of being able to see / try the item and has a good return policy, why should online selling be a problem? Is it because all of they key brands have already established a network of dealers and only new market entrants start from selling purely online? This automatically rules out, for example, 50Cycles & Kalkhoff brand, Alien Bikes, and Synergy Bikes. A golden rule for eliminating competition?

I think Flecc has spelt this out for you, however I have repeatedly said that BEBA is not trying to exclude, on the contrary we NEED to include. Any company who is prepared to sign up to the BEBA CoP is most welcome.

As well as setting a standard for electric bike suppliers, BEBA is dedicated to promoting electric bike use in the UK through PR, advertising and sponsorship. BEBA has already sponsored Tour de Presteign to the tune of £400.00 and has started a PR campaign to publicise the event. Sponsorship, PR and advertising does not come cheap so we need as many members as possible to help shoulder the cost. Before you point out that Wisper is also mentioned as a sponsor on the TdP website, we paid for that sponsorship separately! Also consider that general electric bike publicity will also increase sales for non members.

2. BEBA - organisation for recognised brands only? Well, that clearly shows that this ‘independent’ organisation would block any new market entrants, no matter how good products they sell, purely as they don’t represent recognised brands (and you surely know from your own experience that building brand awareness does take time). I thought that becoming a member of an industry association should depend on whether you conform to certain standards (ie safety norms), not whether you are well known or not, but clearly that’s the case with BEBA….

We have an absolute interest in supporting new market entrants as long as they haves put in place the infrastructure to support their customers. Being well known has nothing to do with BEBA membership! However having a brand that can be recognised has. Without a brand how does the customer know where to go if they have a problem?

Rules for retailers

1 & 4. Retailers to stock at least one brand from key members? So you can use the logo of our ‘independent’ organisation only if you sell our products meaning you are either with us or against?

Absolutely spot on Alex, we only want to encourage the sale of electric bikes by companies who are prepared to agree in public to look after their customers. If a customer asks BEBA for help with an electric bike problem, how is BEBA able to react if the bike in question is not from a BEBA member?

5. Retailers not to sell replicas? I’m absolutely against copy products but I have an impression that in your opinion any other bike that looks like, …er…. bike (with just a vague resemblance to yours), is a replica of yours. And as you would have a decisive voice as to whether a certain brand is a replica or not, soon the suppliers carrying BEBA logo wouldn’t be able to make their own choice and sell anything else that’s not one of they key brands, as all other bikes would surely be branded ‘replicas’.

The decision to exclude a company because they are manufacturing a clone of another bike is not down to the individual member who has had a product copied but by a vote from the entire committee.

Is the above what you call a fair business case? I would rather call it threatening suppliers, promoting your own brands only, and making sure that customers who will wrongly believe that BEBA is an independent standard organisation, will face limited / restricted choice of brands as certain products will not be available in many retail providers because of your anti-competition rules. Most of the consumers would automatically associate an industry body as an independent organisation and I’m sure most of them would get quite pissed off if they found out that what seems to be an independent body was only set up to protect the interests of key manufacturers and make sure that consumers would not have wide access to other but key brands.
I understand promoting your own business but doing it by misleading customers and restricting free and fair competition is simply unethical!

You do seem to have missed the point Alex, BEBA has been set up by the electric bike industry for the electric bike industry, not by Wisper to sell more bikes. If that was the case I would not have spent 100's of hours and 1,000's of £'s helping to set up BEBA to promote Ezee, Urban Mover, Ultra Motor, E-Motion and Gepida, and I certainly would not openly be inviting Cytronex, I-Zip, Giant, Trek and Kalkhoff amongst others to join in, now would I? If anyone were to go to the BEBA web pages they would quickly find a list of participants so how is this in any way underhand?

To sum up I’d really like to see an independent organisation in this industry – not the one like yours that really sucks!

OK Alex put your time and money where your mouth is, go for it, I for one will support you! Better still, lets have your application to join, Key membership only costs £485, I will try and get the others to vote you onto the committee.

All the best

David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

David just mentioned on the previous page that Alien is not welcome becuase they are internet only based so i assume the same will apply to Synergy aswell. For BEBA one showroom looks like it's not enough to have a physical presence which is the case of Alien.

Read the CoP again Alex, as long as Alien have a store (and have sorted out the battery issues mentioned by Flecc) they would be welcome to apply.

1. Only make sales through dealers / retailers or directly to the end user through flagship stores and not exclusively online

Regards

David

 

[NRG]

I have posted on this before which is why I refrained from repeating it. However:

Synergie have been unable to supply batteries for their most popular Mistral model to the trade or public for a long while and have given no indication of when or if that might change. Now we learn they are merging into Alien, with no news on their models, batteries or spares continuing.

They have only just merged. Given them a break, I would think they have a lot of ground to cover to get both operations working under one 'roof' and to address issues of legacy support.

Alien have said their bikes are suddenly changing to different ones now, not accompanied by any assurances regarding continuing availability of spares, batteries etc.

Alien made a mistake on sales forecast which I'm sure they are not happy about, however, I'm under the impression they are doing everything possible to ensure continuity with the new stock and so continue the success of the GSII. Sure, I bet there will be spec. changes but I see that as an opportunity to improve the product not a negative and something potential customers should embrace.

There's history as well in both cases, but I'm just confining the remarks to the present, this in the context of BEBA eligibility only.
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Well, its interesting that there was consideration for an on-line retailers type of membership but disappointing that a decision was may to exclude them...its a missed opportunity IMHO and does not broaden the appeal of E-Bikes that the BEBA is trying to develop.

 

[Patrick]

Rules for retailers

1 & 4. Retailers to stock at least one brand from key members? So you can use the logo of our ‘independent’ organisation only if you sell our products meaning you are either with us or against?

Absolutely spot on Alex, we only want to encourage the sale of electric bikes by companies who are prepared to agree in public to look after their customers.

Do you want to encourage the sales electric bikes of any company that is prepared to agree in public to look after their customers, or do you only want do encourage the sales of only those companies who are prepared to agree in public to look after their customers who do so by becoming key members of BEBA?

If a customer asks BEBA for help with an electric bike problem, how is BEBA able to react if the bike in question is not from a BEBA member?

That's a good question David, how will the BEBA react if a customer of a BEBA Retail member has a problem with a bike that is not from a BEBA Key member?

This scenario may well occur because, as flecc has pointed out several times, BEBA Retail members will be free to sell any makes of bike they wish.

 

[NRG]

We have an absolute interest in supporting new market entrants as long as they haves put in place the infrastructure to support their customers. Being well known has nothing to do with BEBA membership! However having a brand that can be recognised has. Without a brand how does the customer know where to go if they have a problem?

I have to disagree with this. You don't need a 'brand' to be able to provide quality service and support to your customers. I'm well aware you have created a brand with Wisper David for which you should be congratulated, what branding will do for you is define what your company is and how its better and different from the competition this ultimately adds value and creates sales through desirability, product identity and recognition.

The intensity of these will drive market share, possibly enable higher ASP and provide stronger residuals plus it can also allow you to weather market conditions better especially if you screw up somewhere along the line.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Thanks for your points Patrick

1. Our Activities will encourage the sales of electric bikes through all good suppliers.

If an electric bike supplier would like to publicly agree to follow the BEBA code of practice and join up to help promote electric bike sales in general we will add them to our list of members.

2. Good point!

We would point out to the customer that the bike purchased was not one supported by BEBA, however if we could help to resolve a problem between customer and supplier we would endeavour to do so. As the retailer is selling a Key member's product that Key member would become involved. It would give BEBA an opportunity to recruit a new member!

I know this is not perfect yet but with constructive questions like these we will get there soon!

All the best, David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I have to disagree with this. You don't need a 'brand' to be able to provide quality service and support to your customers. I'm well aware you have created a brand with Wisper David for which you should be congratulated, what branding will do for you is define what your company is and how its better and different from the competition this ultimately adds value and creates sales through desirability, product identity and recognition.

The intensity of these will drive market share, possibly enable higher ASP and provide stronger residuals plus it can also allow you to weather market conditions better especially if you screw up somewhere along the line.

I agree, of course you don't need a brand to develop a quality product. It is easier for a customer however to find someone to help if the product is branded and not left unmarked. My point is we will not exclude simply because a brand is not well known.

Thanks for your point, NRG... good one well made!

All the best

David

 

[Patrick]

We would point out to the customer that the bike purchased was not one supported by BEBA, however if we could help to resolve a problem between customer and supplier we would endeavour to do so. As the retailer is selling a Key member's product that Key member would become involved. It would give BEBA an opportunity to recruit a new member!

There is another approach, you could make the BEBA Retail Member resposible for shortfalls in service for any non-BEBA bikes that they choose to sell. That way a customer that buys from a BEBA Retailer can expect good service from whatever bike they choose, and if there's a problem the BEBA can get directly involved. (Isn't the customer's contract with the retailer anyway, so as far as the customer's concerned the retailer is the supplier?)

If there is a problem with a particular non-BEBA supplier the Retailer can ask for the BEBAs help in negotiating with them. This would also open up a recruitment approach along the lines of: "One of our retail members has had to pick up the pieces because of your service problems, is there any way we can help stop it happening again?"