Although both Eddieo and Indalo have been deleted as members, they can still read this forum, much as I've done over the years, without the need to log on. I've been in touch with Eddieo, and have heard his side, and it does indeed seem as if the "new regime" chose this moment to just get rid of him, not for what was written either privately or publicly over this latest issue (none of which was either offensive or out of order, BTW) but maybe because there seems to be a new agenda here by the management. I strongly suspect that this is business related, and the members here are really just viewed as business assets, to be best used to ensure profitability in these tough times.

 

One of the reasons I chose to stay way from here for a few years (I joined way back in 2007, only a year or so after the venerable flecc) was because of the way things were influenced here. I had thought this forum was relatively free from bias from the admin/moderation team, but it seems that things are changing now.

 

 

Hmmm....I thought so ......not that I think that they will, Im sure they both have a life apart from being on here......

 

I dont know what you mean by new regime, business related, or new agenda.......its a bike forum not MI 5.......and Im certain I dont feel like a 'business asset'......I just want to learn about electric bikes, keep up to date, and occasionally have a bit of light hearted banter with like minded people, some of whom have become good friends.

 

At the end of the day, what has to be accepted is that both men were under a publicly stated final warning and told in no uncertain terms that the next time it would be the red card without further discussion.

 

Eddieo had got away with a few more comments that were 'bordering' on personal insults and I presume that Russ had finally had enough, he had already just warned them about flaming.

 

Which, incidentally brought forth a comment from eddie that he had had to look that up on google as he didnt know what flaming meant.....I mean, really ?

 

None of us know the full facts, you only have eddies side of it, we have to accept Russ' judgement....end of.....

 

Theres really no point in raking over the ashes of it all now, basically, if we want to continue to enjoy this forum we have to abide by the rules...as on any other public forum. no insults , no deliberate flaming for a start.....if not......the 'portal' is open........we are free to leave.....

 

Lynda

Hmmm....I thought so ......not that I think that they will, Im sure they both have a life apart from being on here......

 

I dont know what you mean by new regime, business related, or new agenda.......its a bike forum not MI 5.......and Im certain I dont feel like a 'business asset'......I just want to learn about electric bikes, keep up to date, and occasionally have a bit of light hearted banter with like minded people, some of whom have become good friends.

 

At the end of the day, what has to be accepted is that both men were under a publicly stated final warning and told in no uncertain terms that the next time it would be the red card without further discussion.

 

Eddieo had got away with a few more comments that were 'bordering' on personal insults and I presume that Russ had finally had enough, he had already just warned them about flaming.

 

Which, incidentally brought forth a comment from eddie that he had had to look that up on google as he didnt know what flaming meant.....I mean, really ?

 

None of us know the full facts, you only have eddies side of it, we have to accept Russ' judgement....end of.....

 

Theres really no point in raking over the ashes of it all now, basically, if we want to continue to enjoy this forum we have to abide by the rules...as on any other public forum. no insults , no deliberate flaming for a start.....if not......the 'portal' is open........we are free to leave.....

 

Lynda

 

It's a fact of life that most internet forums are businesses. They cost money to run and generate an income for those that set them up. Forum members are, in effect, just like unpaid workers. The contributions we make (voluntarily) add value by attracting a wider readership, which then makes the site more attractive to advertisers.

 

It's a simple business model that works well, which is why forums are now bought and sold, often for fairly large sums of money. Some of the bigger forums, such as those originally started by car enthusiasts for example, change hands for surprisingly large sums and generate a great deal of advertising revenue.

 

This forum was established and is run as a commercial venture, not a charitable act. We, the members, have no rights, and have to expect that we are only allowed to have discussions here that generally align with the wishes of the site owners. This is no different to the letters page in a newspaper, where the editor/owner sets out what can and cannot be published, based on whether or not it will increase newspaper sales.

 

There are very few "non-monetized" internet forums around now, virtually all of them are businesses that use member contributions to raise viewing figures and hence advertising revenue. I'm amazed that people, who freely use other highly commercial web site like Facebook et al, still believe that internet discussion forums are public and for free debate. The vast majority are just commercially owned businesses, like many others.

Hmmm....I thought so ......not that I think that they will, Im sure they both have a life apart from being on here......

 

I dont know what you mean by new regime, business related, or new agenda.......its a bike forum not MI 5.......and Im certain I dont feel like a 'business asset'......I just want to learn about electric bikes, keep up to date, and occasionally have a bit of light hearted banter with like minded people, some of whom have become good friends.

 

At the end of the day, what has to be accepted is that both men were under a publicly stated final warning and told in no uncertain terms that the next time it would be the red card without further discussion.

 

Eddieo had got away with a few more comments that were 'bordering' on personal insults and I presume that Russ had finally had enough, he had already just warned them about flaming.

 

Which, incidentally brought forth a comment from eddie that he had had to look that up on google as he didnt know what flaming meant.....I mean, really ?

 

None of us know the full facts, you only have eddies side of it, we have to accept Russ' judgement....end of.....

 

Theres really no point in raking over the ashes of it all now, basically, if we want to continue to enjoy this forum we have to abide by the rules...as on any other public forum. no insults , no deliberate flaming for a start.....if not......the 'portal' is open........we are free to leave.....

 

Lynda

 

All fair points, but this forum does have a history of deleting or locking threads, some of which contain nothing more than a report about a customer's personal experience with a product or a retailer. No insults, just a report of their experience. Result > Thread removed or locked. Threads concerning Justebikes and 50 Cycles are two examples.

All fair points, but this forum does have a history of deleting or locking threads, some of which contain nothing more than a report about a customer's personal experience with a product or a retailer. No insults, just a report of their experience. Result > Thread removed or locked. Threads concerning Justebikes and 50 Cycles are two examples.

 

I think this illustrates the point that commercial pressures, or perhaps just site owner/administrator preferences, will often influence discussion content and direction.

 

I was a member of another forum, that on the face of it did not seem to be particularly commercial. The funding model for that was slightly unusual, in that as well as generating advertising revenue from sponsors, members posts were also edited and published in a printed magazine. At a guess, based on the size of the article in the magazine, and also from my experience as a part-time contributor to a few magazines, I'd say that the edited and published posts added another £200 to £300 of revenue from the forum to each edition.

 

Curiously, in the latter case, the site owner had very forcefully expressed views on forbidden topics of discussion and used the forum as a way of publicising his views to a wider audience. This included editing and deleting any posts that disagreed with his views and altering the context of threads so that they no longer aligned with the views that had originally been expressed. This went virtually unnoticed for a fair time, until some of us went back and read some older posts for reference and realised what was going on. As soon as this behaviour was posted it got the members concerned banned, simply for trying to reveal what had been going on.

 

I strongly suspect this goes on in other forums, too, although I'm not suggesting it happens here in the same way.

As noted earlier , where is the Storck advert ? Seems to have slipped off the site .

 

It seems the motives for censoring and banning, are starting to become more evident. Clearly critism of site advertisers products is frowned upon . I personally will not critise, or RECOMMEND any further products on this site, this B...S... works both ways.

Edited January 30, 201313 yr by jazper53

It's a pity that the guilty parties couldn't be sinbinned for let's say a month, rather than be given the death penalty.

 

I, like many, thought Eddieo was out of order on numerous occasions, but equally valued many of his contributions.

 

As for Indalo, I will miss his humorous threads - off topic maybe, but some had me rofl.

 

R.I.P.

All fair points, but this forum does have a history of deleting or locking threads, some of which contain nothing more than a report about a customer's personal experience with a product or a retailer. No insults, just a report of their experience. Result > Thread removed or locked. Threads concerning Justebikes and 50 Cycles are two examples.

 

Forum owners - and contributors - are publishers, but few have any legal training in publishing.

 

Concepts such as fair dealing and the right of reply are not widely understood.

 

Also, there is no doubt that criticising goods and services has become more dangerous in recent years - some of the previously gung-ho national newspapers are more cautious than they were.

 

Ultimately, the forum owner is responsible for any bother stemming from content because the author, if they can be traced, may not have any money and will certainly be most unwilling to part with what they do have.

 

I can understand why an owner would not want to take a risk, however small.

It's a pity that the guilty parties couldn't be sinbinned for let's say a month, rather than be given the death penalty.

 

I, like many, thought Eddieo was out of order on numerous occasions, but equally valued many of his contributions.

 

As for Indalo, I will miss his humorous threads - off topic maybe, but some had me rofl.

 

R.I.P.

 

I have no doubt they have already have new accounts in anticipation from past warnings. Their handles will possibly reflect some fire-breathing Dragon ?

All fair points, but this forum does have a history of deleting or locking threads, some of which contain nothing more than a report about a customer's personal experience with a product or a retailer. No insults, just a report of their experience. Result > Thread removed or locked. Threads concerning Justebikes and 50 Cycles are two examples.

 

Hmmmm....50C......or 10cc as I like to call them.......probably better not to re open that can of worms....tempting as it is

 

Thing is, we are never in full receipt of the facts and we dont know what is going on behind the scenes so I suppose we just have to accept that

 

Jeremy....as for the forum being a business, I realise it is, but just couldnt see your point that it is changing and becoming more business related......and even if it is, all I can say is I hope Russ starts earning good money from it and decides to sponsor

 

CycleCharge | Charge on the move

 

Sorry, but being in business myself....I cant let an opportunity slip by....... :D

 

Lynda

I have no doubt they have already have new accounts in anticipation from past warnings. Their handles will possibly reflect some fire-breathing Dragon ?

 

LOL....there is NO way they could ever rejoin and remain incognito......unless edd joined as a new Tonaro owner......which I am sure would stick in his craw way too much to ever contemplate..... but would be oh so amusing.......

 

Lynda

Hmmmm....50C......or 10cc as I like to call them.......probably better not to re open that can of worms....tempting as it is

 

Thing is, we are never in full receipt of the facts and we dont know what is going on behind the scenes so I suppose we just have to accept that.

 

I was personally involved in one such episode and I know exactly what goes on.

I don't think any of us have anything to worry about as long as what we write is factual, fair and proportional. I myself wrote in the Storck thread that I thought that too much was being said, which amounted to hounding the supplier, and I personally didn't think it was fair and proportional. I was half-expecting repercussions, which is why I wrote that in an attempt to calm things down.

 

I feel very sorry for Eddieo and Indalo, but remember, they were both previously banned and then re-instated. Then there were further transgressions and final warnings before the ban. Unfortunately there are rules and we have to stick to them. I don't see it as sensorship.

Forum owners - and contributors - are publishers, but few have any legal training in publishing.

 

Concepts such as fair dealing and the right of reply are not widely understood.

 

Also, there is no doubt that criticising goods and services has become more dangerous in recent years - some of the previously gung-ho national newspapers are more cautious than they were.

 

Ultimately, the forum owner is responsible for any bother stemming from content because the author, if they can be traced, may not have any money and will certainly be most unwilling to part with what they do have.

 

I can understand why an owner would not want to take a risk, however small.

 

Well said. As I mentioned previously, the law is frequently misunderstood when it comes to libel via the internet, or the more extreme criminal charges associated with incitement etc.

 

For a start, a published statement can only be libellous if it can be proved to be false. In this case the statement criticising a company was perfectly legal, as it was true.

 

The test for publishing something that is offensive is a pretty tough one. I doubt that a court would find publishing swear words offensive, for example, and personally I don't think I've ever seen things stoop that low here. It isn't offensive in law just to call someone a derogatory name, unless that name-calling can be proved to have caused actual (not imaginary) material damage. Even then it's extremely unlikely to result in a prosecution.

 

Similarly, publishing information freely obtained or received isn't normally unlawful, unless it is covered by a specific agreement preventing such publication. Even then it is not easy to bring a prosecution (look at Wikileaks, the Spycatcher story etc, etc). Just because publishing something annoys someone doesn't make it unlawful. If it did, then Private Eye and most of the tabloid press would have been suppressed years ago.

 

The core value of this forum to members has to be the free and open exchange of information about available electric bikes. If that exchange of information is no longer free and open, but is edited or censored and therefore biased, either deliberately or accidentally, then the value decreases, both for forum members and for advertisers and sponsors.

 

Finally, although the host of a forum has a legal obligation to try and ensure that published content remains within the bounds of the law (tough here when the whole forum is based on a presently illegal activity) then they cannot be prosecuted for the content posted by members. We all carry the responsibility for the content of our posts as authors.

I was personally involved in one such episode and I know exactly what goes on.

 

Mmmm....care to share ? lol.......after all I was personally threatened on that thread, so I do have a vested interest

 

On second thoughts....best let sleeping dogs lie.....

 

( I must be in a conciliatory, lets all be friends mood this morning :o )

 

Lynda

tough here when the whole forum is based on a presently illegal activity

 

Aiding and abetting ... haahahahahahahahah

 

http://www.brandautopsy.com/images/old/6a00d8341bf89d53ef01156fc7dd2f970c-150wi.jpg

Aiding and abetting ... haahahahahahahahah

 

Exactly!

 

It would be great if the law allowed us to choose which laws we will abide by and which we won't, but it doesn't, as we all know.

 

For a forum that is based on discussing and actively encouraging and promoting what is, at the moment, an illegal activity, and which compounds that by allowing open discussion about constructing illegal motor vehicles, to try and claim any legal moral high ground when it comes to publishing the content of emails or other correspondence is somewhat amusing.

[ATTACH]4952.vB[/ATTACH]

Aiding and abetting ... haahahahahahahahah

 

 

http://www.brandautopsy.com/images/old/6a00d8341bf89d53ef01156fc7dd2f970c-150wi.jpg

 

The new policy

In case anyone is under any doubt about what's going on, unless I'm mistaken yet more posts about a certain manufacturer have now been deleted.

 

Clearly there is some sensitivity about this, and as nothing stated (AFAICS) was unlawful or libellous one can only conclude that there were other reasons for removing those posts. It doesn't take a genius to make a stab at the possible range of reasons for such action.

I am sure both eddieo and indalo will be back,how can you ban such great posts from both. Great technical knowledge and jokes.

A few weeks in the cooler be it right or wrong will allow them to top up ready for some more interesting posts.

R.I.P eddieo and indalo......i think not.......just resting their typing fingers !

 

maybe we should all add o to our names until they return.....carpetbaggero.....i bit italian don't you think.

Edited January 30, 201313 yr by carpetbagger

In case anyone is under any doubt about what's going on, unless I'm mistaken yet more posts about a certain manufacturer have now been deleted.

 

Clearly there is some sensitivity about this, and as nothing stated (AFAICS) was unlawful or libellous one can only conclude that there were other reasons for removing those posts. It doesn't take a genius to make a stab at the possible range of reasons for such action.

 

Yea not exactly doing anything to disprove our conspiracy theorys

One problem is that it isn't always easy to see if a post has been edited. If the author edits it then it usually shows with the "last edited by" line at the bottom. If an administrator edits a post, or deletes it, then there doesn't seem to be an obvious indication that this has been done. I accept that there are one or two obvious moderator edits where the term "moderator" has been added in curly brackets, but this seems to have been manually inserted.

 

It is clear that threads have been deleted, as well as posts edited and members banned, all over a discussion that was at least based on fact, rather than scurrilous rumour. Seems a bit OTT to me, as on this occasion, at least, neither forum member concerned had posted anything untrue, unlawful or offensive.

Statistics show if your forum name ends with o, there is a 67.4% chance you will get banned.

And 82.7% of statistics are made up on the spot.............

Eddie is a nice guy who has no malice for others, he merely expresses himself in a manner which is intended to be humorous. Anyone who has spent a fair amount of time in the British Army, as I have, will be well aware of this form of abusive friendly communication that occurs between comrades. That is how Eddie regards all the forum members, as more than just friends but as comrades in e-biking.

 

It's unfortunate that some take this form of communication as serious and react with anger, which in turn has at times made Eddie respond with strongly expressed anger at the misunderstanding.

this form of abusive friendly communication that occurs between comrades

 

Also applys to any of the services .. its the only thing that keeps em sane also is a great method of giving a reality check when peeps start to take things / life wayyyyy to seriously

 

I mean... come on, its got to be a f***ing joke.. right

 

So laugh and enjoy the ride.

Edited January 30, 201313 yr by Old_Dave

I must say that I have been on the receiving end of some of Eddie's direct comments about my bikes,I have never felt a need to complain to Russell about any comments.

Something about 'if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen'!!!!

Forum members must appreciate that ebikes are not selling well at present,the bad weather seems to have lasted for ever and the austerity cuts by governments and the toll of employment on the high street is giving all businesses a bashing. Some ebike suppliers are having such a bad time that inevitably tensions start to surface and many will not survive-it is not by coincidence that even well established suppliers are making substantial price cuts just to try to keep the cash flow rolling.

 

Dave

Kudoscycles

Edited January 30, 201313 yr by Kudoscycles