I was thinking that could be an option. Would I be liable if my bikes were involved in an accident or would it be the customers responsibility, as long as the bike was built correctly.

 

You'd only be liable if the product you supplied was faulty and the fault caused the accident.

 

What kind of construction standards are there for ebike creators?

 

The whole range of applicable standards is very complex. However, if you use a reputable bicycle that has been built to those standards, plus an e-bike kit from a reputable supplier that meets the UKs legal requirements, the two built together well will meet all the standards.

 

Here's the standards if you are interested, but all will be looked after automatically if you use pre-approved bikes and kits to build from:

 

Construction and Use regulations for all bicycles:

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1983/1176/pdfs/uksi_19831176_en.pdf

 

You also need a copy of BS1727 to understand the motor and battery testing and proof of compliance stuff that supports the manufacturers data plate declaration. I can't let you have that as you need to pay for it, price £47 from this link

 

Each e-bike you build should have a plate attached to the bike, here's the law extract on that:

 

A plate securely fixed in a conspicuous and readily accessible position showing—

 

(a) the name of the manufacturer of the vehicle (that's you)

 

(b) the nominal voltage of the battery (as defined

in the 1971 British Standard) of the vehicle, and

 

© the continuous rated output (as defined in the 1971 British Standard) of the motor of the vehicle. (That's the motor rating, usually 250 watts)

.

Edited January 10, 201610 yr by flecc

you can build and sell 250W e-bikes. There is currently a gap in the market, well finished bikes for less than £1,000.

Mainstream Chinese bikes importers can't get their bikes finished to German standard and nobody in the UK builds e-bikes to German standard either.

 

If you are building to German standards there is no way you can build a new bespoke bike for under 1330 € and make a living. Sure you can put a GSM motor kit on a brand new Decathlon bike and sell it for £995 but it will still have crappy tyres and brakes far from German standards.

 

As soon as you try adding quality components you find yourself in the 2250 € price zone competing almost directly with the German bikes price wise. And you have a whole heap of low quality bike bits in a box that you could try and flog on e-bay (probably earning yourself a reputation as a bike thief in the process).

sometime ago, I did a feasibility study on buying and selling bikes in the £300-£500 band. The idea is some customers may want to have a kit like the GSM fitted. The income stream would come from regular markup on the mechanical bike plus kit sale and fitting charge. A sale target of 300 e-bikes a year should generate about £300,000 sales.

sometime ago, I did a feasibility study on buying and selling bikes in the £300-£500 band. The idea is some customers may want to have a kit like the GSM fitted. The income stream would come from regular markup on the mechanical bike plus kit sale and fitting charge. A sale target of 300 e-bikes a year should generate about £300,000 sales.

In a very limited way, I do something similar. If a local second hand bike takes my fancy, especially if its cheap because it needs something fixed, then I buy it with a view to selling it on.

 

It's just the selling on bit that I have yet to master. n+1 and all that...

Cathal....I bet after all the foregoing you probably think it is not worth the effort and that we are trying to put you off.

Far from it,I respect anybody who is trying to start a business today.

When I started my principal business I lived in a flat,had a wire hanging out the window and my stock in a lock up garage,it has grown to be a strong business now in a 40,000 sq foot warehouse.

But the world has changed in the 43 years I have been in business,the amount of legal knowledge and paperwork involved has grown ten fold....just an idea that when you do a show at the NEC there are now 37 forms to be completed.

I admire anyone who copes with a new business.

So keep it small,under the vat limit,keep it legal. Identify a type to suit your market.....Trex built a nice bike on his Giant bike which would appeal to an ex road-race type customer,on a secondhand bike I think you could sell at max £1000,perhaps £200 profit,maybe 3 or 4 per month.

I would do a deal with a UK motor supplier,if you have a battery or motor problem you have some local warranty,no realistic possibility with a Chinese supplier.

So many talk,few do....go for it....you won't know whether it will work and the upsides/downsides until you get involved.

KudosDave

Surely if you tell the customer it's not legal to ride on the road and provide this information to them you won't be liable for their offences. I'd say you'd only be open to litigation if you deliberately misled them.

 

You would think so but customers tend to have short memories when faced with litigation and it's very tempting to try to deflect the blame to the 'expert',if you watch them test ride it on the road that is effectively you saying its legal to use on the road.

KudosDave

Here is one for you to either laugh at or not.

 

For those that are already in the trade, I recently spotted what I thought could be two new advertising mediums.

 

The first for pedelecs, the second for pedal only cycles.

 

I was sitting in the waiting room at my local orthopaedic hospital a month or so ago, and it occurred to me that many such places, are now open to public advertising and sponsorship.

What an ideal place to be promoting pedelec's for post operation rehabilitation and health improvement, whilst having low impact on joint issues.

Many hospitals now have TV monitor advertising, but wouldn't it be great to actually have wall space to hang a bike from. A captive audience, and one that should be looking towards health improvement. Health improvement that I'd imagine hospital staff to be in favour of. Whether by sale of product, hire of product, or even the sale of and fitment of kits to a clients existing pedal cycle, there must be an angle there somewhere.

I quite fancy the hire idea my self, but don't have the finance to back it.

 

The second place, which I mentioned to a 'non ebike' cycle shop owning friend, is private leisure centres and health clubs/gyms. Again as an advertising space, you couldn't get much better. A lovely race orientated road bike, or MTB adorning a wall placed in front of static cycles, could work very well. The friend that I mentioned the idea to, is now in negotiation with two local private gyms, so it'll be interesting to see how things pan out, even if it only gets the name of his shop known, it must help.

 

Sitting here thinking about it further, Railway stations could be another source of advertising. No idea how you could implement keeping a static display safe, but many people travel to and from railway stations by cycle.

Edited January 10, 201610 yr by EddiePJ

If you are building to German standards there is no way you can build a new bespoke bike for under 1330 € and make a living. Sure you can put a GSM motor kit on a brand new Decathlon bike and sell it for £995 but it will still have crappy tyres and brakes far from German standards.

 

As soon as you try adding quality components you find yourself in the 2250 € price zone competing almost directly with the German bikes price wise. And you have a whole heap of low quality bike bits in a box that you could try and flog on e-bay (probably earning yourself a reputation as a bike thief in the process).

 

Another kiwi...most of the German assemblers (note I use assemblers not manufacturers) use Chinese sourced parts. I walk round my e-bike supplier in Tianjin,who is also the largest frame manufacturer and I read many of the German names on the frame references. Shimano,Tektro,King Meter,Shwalbe all used by German assemblers are Chinese manufactured.

There are many Italian and Spanish bike suppliers whose bikes are badge engineered and 100 % Chinese manufactured and assembled.

The major exception is Bosch motors,made in France and Eastern Europe.

Not sure where Yamaha is manufactured. But the new Bafang mid drive is receiving some good reviews.

The Germans are good at assembling and get the details and styling more integrated,their marketing also very strong and they have a very loyal home market ,good quality control but the better components from the Chinese are often the same as the Germans.

KudosDave

Thanks for all the advice guys, it hasn't gone unnoticed

http://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/wing-ebikes?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

 

This guy seems to be doing OK.

I notice that whilst he says it is great 'off-road' that nowhere does he mention that it is illegal to ride on the road.

£249 bike (price at halfords) + £502 motor kit (ciclotek* may charge him less, they have a reseller program) = less than £750 in costs

 

What he is doing wrong:

"Wing eBikes have developed a system that allows the user to swap between two modes depending on whether you are on-road or off-road, "

This is false advertising (and a downright lie) they have developed nothing. Wing eBikes have cobbled a Ciclotek* LCD5 kit onto a bike. They have nothing to do with the design or programming of the KT-LCD3 which is provided with the kit.

 

The speed can be limited to 25 kph but turning down the Amps from the LCD (very time consuming series of button presses) you will only limit the output to 17 amps which give 816 Watt far from 250 W nominative. This is not what I would call "two modes" just damned powerful and a whole heap more powerful...

 

So if being a successful con man is your idea of "doing OK" go for it...

 

* I recognised the kit and the controller bag as from Ciclotek but there are probably other importers selling this bog standard Chinese kit

It gets worse, he is selling the original rear wheel from the bike for £52... And the unmounted brake levers from the kit for £12

For off road use only has never stopped the motorcycle manufacturers from selling bikes.

For off road use only has never stopped the motorcycle manufacturers from selling bikes.

 

But they are legal as machines, there are no laws restricting motorcycle power or maximum powered speed. The control of those is by registration and driving licences

 

Pedelecs are completely different, restricted in their power and maximum motor drive speed, since they are not registered and riders don't have to have a licence and are therefore untested and untraceable.

.

Off road motorcycles are not legal to use on the road.Unless they go through the MSVA.And there is all sorts of restrictions on road legal motorcycle power and licencing 50 cc 125 cc.33 bhp for people who choose or are not old enough to go the for the full motorcycle test.It is up every individual to know the laws of the land.what I was trying to say is I think it is up to the individual if they want to brake the law or not.

I think it is up to the individual if they want to brake the law or not.

 

I agree, but the traceability is an important factor, impossible with pedelecs and their riders.

 

I've often thought it might be better if pedelecs were registered with a mini number plate. VED (road tax) is free on electric vehicles anyway. Then with traceability only the assist speed limit would be necessary, the motor power up to a more practical limit like 1000 watts could be left to the e-bike designer to specify what was needed.

.

A tour de france rider can put out 1100w for a short distance.They give Free road tax for historic vehicles as well.They need to do something,because I have built what I thought was a road legal bike.But i'am beginning to think it might not be.E.A.P.C.S.V.A at a M.OT station.They have shut down a lot of the S.V.A test centre's.

They need to do something,because I have built what I thought was a road legal bike.

 

I very much doubt anything will change.

 

Most of the current pedelec law in the UK has been in force since 1983 and 1988, and the EU law has been in force since 1999.

 

With such long established law and nearly all of Europe happy with it at present, there's no likelyhood of change.

.

What will change is the number of illegal bikes.

What will change is the number of illegal bikes.

 

Possibly, though since about 2005 they've always been around in large numbers in the UK, just not talked about so much so not apparent. In mid 2006 when many of us were riding illegally fast e-bikes, this forum didn't exist.

 

Illegal e-bikes are largely only a UK thing for various reasons, in mainland Europe almost all are entirely legal pedelecs.

.

The comparison to motorbikes is not really relevant for a number of reasons.

 

Mainly that it's possible to use non road legal motorbikes at a host of venues and events around the UK.

 

It's not possible to use illegally powerful eBikes anywhere currently in the UK.

 

Having spoken to a number of our motorbike shops about this, they have provided us a response that can be summarised with a very simple statement.

 

"Our customers generally aren't stupid enough to buy these and use them on the road or in public parks and forests"

 

People who buy Offroad motorbikes know where they can use them and generally abide by the law

 

People who buy illegal eBikes generally don't understand the law and operate on the "I'll never get caught" principle.

 

The fact that even this eBay seller uses the "Offroad button" statement shows that he or she has no idea of the actual law and is therefore putting their customers at risk of prosecution or liability simply to make a quick buck. It's either ignorance or very bad selling practice neither of which is want to see from someone I'm spending money with.

The fact that even this eBay seller uses the "Offroad button" statement shows that he or she has no idea of the actual law.

 

There is this statement, quote - "Accuracy of interpretation: We endeavour to ensure that our interpretation of the law is up to date and accurate. However we cannot accept liability for any information that may be inaccurate."

So effectively he / she is saying if its wrong - then tough

Only problem is that as a business you have to abide by the law. If you don't, the "I didn't know" line won't stand up in court.

 

So if one of this guys customers is involved in an accident in the forest somewhere, he could find himself in a whole world of trouble that a one line statement on eBay will not get him out of.

If you read through it all it is just false advertising and downright lies...

 

And he has 1000 happy customers...