October 14, 20178 yr and prove the bicycle is made in Austria... which it is. `made`?? you really mean `assembled` ?
October 15, 20178 yr Don't forget that the EU isn't some foreign entity David... we are part of it. So this decision will be made by the EU with us involved. If / when we do leave you might find the UK was the strongest voice calling for it, or indeed that the UK wanted a higher duty to encourage UK brands to grow. Maybe Col, but I wonder how many UK bike manufacturers are members of the EBMA? I am pretty sure that this restrictive practice is being driven by the big two or three names that dominate the European cycle market. These guys have huge lobbying budgets as will use them to create an unfair advantage. They are the same companies that dragged their heels in the early days not wanting at accept the ebike revolution. The Chinese not the Europeans developed the market in the early days. Now these few massive businesses are trying desperately and greedily to grab the market using any means at their disposal. I wonder how many KTM components come from China? I know all the Reise and Müller frames are made just south of Taipei. Taiwan is recognised not as the cheapest but one of the best producers of both carbon and alloy frames. IMO the handful of European manufacturers cynically driving this round of protectionism are not doing it for any other reason than to line thier own pockets.
October 15, 20178 yr You can. KTM have a "Made in Austria" sticker on them, we had to go though a lot of hoops to get it, and prove the bicycle is made in Austria... which it is. The parts of the bicycle come from all over the world, as indeed do the staff in Austria. I believe the criteria is that the frames have to be painted in Austria to allow a Made in Austria label to be added. This of course forces the assembly to be done in Austria or nearby. I may be off the mark here, if so what hoops did KTM have to jump though?
October 15, 20178 yr Ok, lets cut to the chase here, KTM ebikes then are a collection of Chinese and other Far Eastern parts, no components have in fact come from factories in Austria.... right?? If so please name them and what part of the ebike they are?. `Made` in Austria my a$$ !! Why do you want a `Made in Austria` sticker anyway?? I hope it wouldn`t be to con the unsuspecting public into buying them??
October 16, 20178 yr Ok, lets cut to the chase here, KTM ebikes then are a collection of Chinese and other Far Eastern parts, no components have in fact come from factories in Austria.... right?? If so please name them and what part of the ebike they are?. `Made` in Austria my a$$ !! Why do you want a `Made in Austria` sticker anyway?? I hope it wouldn`t be to con the unsuspecting public into buying them?? KTM is an Austrian company with a long long heritage, so of course they want to use the Made In Austria tag line, just as UK companies like to use the Made in UK where they can. Yes bikes (any brand) are a collection of parts from a host of suppliers, but they are by no means all Far Eastern, but yes I don't think you'll find any of the component brands that KTM use are Austrian, but there are lots across the range that are European. (side note: we also work with a company called Ursus. These guys have a factory in Italy that makes kick stands, and they actually supply the far east, so you could be riding a Chinese bike and it'll have an Italian kick stand on it.) So KTM make the bikes (assemble if you'd like) in Austria, and they are proud to do that, and employ a lot of people in their factory. Normal bikes have been hit with a tariff for years and its allowed EU Brands (including many in the UK) to establish themselves, sourcing their components from all over the planet to make the bikes they want. http://www.bike-eu.com/laws-regulations/artikel/2010/4/import-duties-on-non-eu-bicycles-1018983
October 16, 20178 yr for those interested in import duty: all codes beginning with 8714 are levied at 4.7% frames, forks, rims, spokes, hubs, brakes, saddles, pedals, cranksets, handlebars, stems, derailleurs, Lithium ion battery are all at 4.7% The e-bike motor (code 8501 31 00) is levied at 2.7% http://www.bike-eu.com/laws-regulations/artikel/2010/4/import-duties-on-non-eu-bicycles-1018983 Now, who wants to invest in an e-bike assembling plant?
October 16, 20178 yr Maybe Col, but I wonder how many UK bike manufacturers are members of the EBMA? I am pretty sure that this restrictive practice is being driven by the big two or three names that dominate the European cycle market. These guys have huge lobbying budgets as will use them to create an unfair advantage. They are the same companies that dragged their heels in the early days not wanting at accept the ebike revolution. The Chinese not the Europeans developed the market in the early days. Now these few massive businesses are trying desperately and greedily to grab the market using any means at their disposal. I wonder how many KTM components come from China? I know all the Reise and Müller frames are made just south of Taipei. Taiwan is recognised not as the cheapest but one of the best producers of both carbon and alloy frames. IMO the handful of European manufacturers cynically driving this round of protectionism are not doing it for any other reason than to line thier own pockets. All fair points, but I think the lack of or low numbers of UK EBMA members is a reflection of our lack of bike big manufactures, which is for a host of reasons, none of which are EU related. And yes I'd agree, there are only a few places in the world that you'd want to get your carbon or alloy frames made and they are all in the Far East currently. KTM's development since the 90s can only have been helped by the fact their owner (Mrs. Carol Urkauf-Chen) is originally from Taiwan. What you need is a good relationship with the factories, because quality control is everything. I've heard some crazy stories about how the factories treat the smaller brands. I do feel your pain on this, but you have to admit the eBike industry is currently benefiting from its classification as bicycles, not motorbikes. So it is a bit strange they are considered at the same tariff rate as motorbikes, not bicycles isn't it?
October 16, 20178 yr Don't run away with the idea that all bike parts come from the Orient, they don't. There are companies in Germany making rims and hubs, a French company making chainrings, cassettes, complete bottom bracket sets with pedal shaft and some accessories, Italian companies also making transmission parts. An English company making drilled disc hub mounts and standard threaded cogs as well as chainrings and handlebars, and another English company mass producing a large range of short length stainless steel spokes from 120mm to 298mm. Yet others producing English made brake pads and brake cables. In many if not most European countries, some frames are made and there's a huge number of companies making various bicycle peripheral parts like carriers, mudguards and accessories. And of course BMZ in Germany mass produce e-bike batteries and have done for some two decades now. Many brands assemble bikes in Europe and they are painted with western produced paints. None of it on the Chinese scale of course, but hardly insignificant. .
October 17, 20178 yr Author Does anyone know the possible WTO tariff on completed bicycles and completed e-bikes.....this is very important if we decide to crash out from the EU....it is likely this tariff will be the one we have to use to stay part of the WTO club. We could choose to stay part of the customs union,in which case it looks likely 55% on all bicycles imported from outside the EU. KudosDave
October 17, 20178 yr Author for those interested in import duty: all codes beginning with 8714 are levied at 4.7% frames, forks, rims, spokes, hubs, brakes, saddles, pedals, cranksets, handlebars, stems, derailleurs, Lithium ion battery are all at 4.7% The e-bike motor (code 8501 31 00) is levied at 2.7% http://www.bike-eu.com/laws-regulations/artikel/2010/4/import-duties-on-non-eu-bicycles-1018983 Now, who wants to invest in an e-bike assembling plant? I assume you have visited an e-bike assembly plant? It isnt that expensive to set one up,a runway with vertical posts,they build them on their side.£10k would probably do it. KudosDave
October 17, 20178 yr I assume you have visited an e-bike assembly plant? It isnt that expensive to set one up,a runway with vertical posts,they build them on their side.£10k would probably do it. KudosDave We are looking into it now, I am off to Romania in a couple of weeks and we have already been offered manufacturing in Slovenia. It’ll cost a bit more than £10,000 though! Building bikes in Europe won’t be that tricky and wages in Eastern Europe are the same if not lower than China now. The real problems are two fold: 1. The threat of the same dumping tax going onto components, although as Tony says some parts are available here in Europe but no where near what the industry will need at the price we need to pay to keep prices down. 2. The value of the £ is set to crash as the forecast Brexit inflation and deal/no deal problems set in. And of course we may not be able to trade with Europe without high tariffs anyway. Setting up in the U.K. and suffering the effects of anti dumping may be the only way forward. IF we manage to find willing labour here. Whatever happens, if antidumping does come in EBikes will be a lot more expensive than they are now. Bikes coming in from Asia do have an effect on European manufacturers, they keep them competitive, if we lose Asian supply, the big two or three bike builder’s cartel will be able to immediately raise prices and of course they will. As I have previously said, this is all about boosting the big European bike builders’ profits. Nothing else. What a mess!
October 17, 20178 yr for those interested in import duty: all codes beginning with 8714 are levied at 4.7% frames, forks, rims, spokes, hubs, brakes, saddles, pedals, cranksets, handlebars, stems, derailleurs, Lithium ion battery are all at 4.7% The e-bike motor (code 8501 31 00) is levied at 2.7% http://www.bike-eu.com/laws-regulations/artikel/2010/4/import-duties-on-non-eu-bicycles-1018983 Now, who wants to invest in an e-bike assembling plant? Let’s talk!
October 17, 20178 yr We are looking into it now, I am off to Romania in a couple of weeks and we have already been offered manufacturing in Slovenia. If you're seriously looking, I can put you in touch with the people at the KTM factory in the Czech Republic, they currently build bikes for a number of EU and UK brands. I've no idea of the costs, but looking at some of the companies that use the facility it must be competitive.
October 17, 20178 yr If you're seriously looking, I can put you in touch with the people at the KTM factory in the Czech Republic, they currently build bikes for a number of EU and UK brands. I've no idea of the costs, but looking at some of the companies that use the facility it must be competitive. Thanks Col, that’s very kind. Please drop me a line. David@amps.bike All the best, David
October 17, 20178 yr Author We are looking into it now, I am off to Romania in a couple of weeks and we have already been offered manufacturing in Slovenia. It’ll cost a bit more than £10,000 though! Building bikes in Europe won’t be that tricky and wages in Eastern Europe are the same if not lower than China now. The real problems are two fold: 1. The threat of the same dumping tax going onto components, although as Tony says some parts are available here in Europe but no where near what the industry will need at the price we need to pay to keep prices down. 2. The value of the £ is set to crash as the forecast Brexit inflation and deal/no deal problems set in. And of course we may not be able to trade with Europe without high tariffs anyway. Setting up in the U.K. and suffering the effects of anti dumping may be the only way forward. IF we manage to find willing labour here. Whatever happens, if antidumping does come in EBikes will be a lot more expensive than they are now. Bikes coming in from Asia do have an effect on European manufacturers, they keep them competitive, if we lose Asian supply, the big two or three bike builder’s cartel will be able to immediately raise prices and of course they will. As I have previously said, this is all about boosting the big European bike builders’ profits. Nothing else. What a mess! The problem is making any decisions at the moment based upon political decisions by our government could be completely wrong... 1. We could stay in the EU and the commission may reject the anti-dumping duty complaint....in which case we stay as we are. 2. We could stay in the EU and the commission agrees with the complaint but puts only a modest dumping duty....probably still best to stay as we are,with small price rises. 3. We could stay in the EU and the commission puts on a 55% anti-dumping duty....need to look to elsewhere to manufacture,inside the EU would be OK provided the manufacturer observes the rule of origin percentages. But if heavy tariffs between the EU and UK then Slovenia would be a bad move,also the £ is very weak against the Euro. 4. We could leave the EU but stay in the custom Union,in which case 1-3 still apply. 5. We could leave the EU ,come out of the customs union but to get a free trade deal with the EU we could agree to all the current EU tariffs....that would be a logical solution to the Irish border problem but would still allow us to do trade deals with other countries,this would also allow us access to the other countries that the EU already has deals with,in which case 1-3 still apply. 6. We could crash out of the EU,the WTO rules force us to put tariffs between the EU and the U.K.,don't know what they would be.....but I cannot see how the EU is going to allow an open border in Ireland,where the south is paying 55% tariff and the north zero....May may choose to keep the tariffs going to protect the EU and our assemblers in the UK and pocket the money or she may make it tariff free from the world,in which case you would regret leaving China. It's going to be very difficult to make a decision where to manufacture until this Brexit nonsense and the dumping duties are sorted out...I am keeping good stocks and wait until some certainty develops. If you think we have problems imagine if you are a food importer from the EU,you could be looking at 35 % average duty and food degrades a bit quicker than a bike !!!! KudosDave
October 17, 20178 yr Who is in this big bike builder's cartel? The two big bicycle making groups in Europe are Accell and Pon Holdings, both Dutch. The Accell brands list is on this link. The Pon brands on this link. .
October 17, 20178 yr The two big bicycle making groups in Europe are Accell and Pon Holdings, both Dutch. The Accell brands list is on this link. The Pon brands on this link. . Thanks for that. It's a bit of a messy industry. I like to know who comes from where. Haibike – German but owned by Dutch and sounds vaguely Japanese. Confusing. Edited October 18, 20178 yr by topographer
October 18, 20178 yr Thanks for that. It's a bit of a mess industry. I like to know who comes from where. Haibike – German but owned by Dutch and sounds vaguely Japanese. Confusing. Likewise Kalkhoff, German but owned by Dutch group Pon Holdings. Most confusing of all is Raleigh, with rights to the name owned in and bikes from England, The Netherlands and Germany. And of course Dutch owned brand Kalkhoff is part of German company Derby Cycles gmbh who were founded by and once owned by Raleigh UK, hence the Derby name present in Germany and now The Netherlands. This is an industry that need it's own historian to keep track! .
October 18, 20178 yr Hai means "shark" in German... Is that referring to the manufacturers of the dealers
October 18, 20178 yr Likewise Kalkhoff, German but owned by Dutch group Pon Holdings. Most confusing of all is Raleigh, with rights to the name owned in and bikes from England, The Netherlands and Germany. And of course Dutch owned brand Kalkhoff is part of German company Derby Cycles gmbh who were founded by and once owned by Raleigh UK, hence the Derby name present in Germany and now The Netherlands. This is an industry that need it's own historian to keep track! . It's hard to care about Raleigh anymore. Foreign owned—do they even have a HQ and design competency in the U.K.?—and apparently their customer service aint too great.
October 18, 20178 yr I am too scared to go to Germany now, I mean with all those sharks around which inspired the marketing dept to pick a name like that... My first (and only until quite recently) brand new bike was a Raleigh and at that time (mid 1967) all bikes were imported from the UK. The NZ govt reduced import quotas and by the 1970's 90% of bikes were made in NZ. Asia won in the late 80's when import quotas were lifted. Now I can't be more on topic with a snippet of history like that can I?
October 19, 20178 yr Let’s talk! the problem is the survivability of such a project. You will need to have a target of producing about 100 bikes a day, 20,000+ a year. I think if you start with a much smaller number, say 25 a day, you can't afford R&D and without R&D, there isn't a future.
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.