October 11, 20178 yr The battle has been lost... http://www.idealeurope.pl/ the Chinese will open factories where ever they need to get around tariffs.
October 13, 20178 yr Honest question... did you not see this coming? The EU have been charging this on normal bikes for years. Its meant that all the big bike brands, Trek etc have assembly factories in the EU. They bring frames & parts in from the far east and build them here. I'm sure the same will happen with eBikes won't it? You'll just have to build the bikes in Europe won't you?
October 13, 20178 yr How will this affect the components for kits? they usually don't. This kind of disputes affects only factory made bikes.
October 13, 20178 yr Kits could be affected if the anti dumping tariff covers components only such as motors, batteries and frames etc as expected. It’s not the end of the world, we have built our bikes in Germany before now, they just were not as good as the Chinese models. We are all busy making contingency plans. It’s all a bit of a nuisance!
October 13, 20178 yr Good point, I wonder if we could get away with importing the electric bikes at 6% and separating the batteries on the commercial invoice to pay 2.7%? Has anyone tried this? It does bring the consequences of double taxation into sharp relief though. I wonder how many people realise they are paying VAT on Duty, tax on tax! With VAT at 20% and Duty at 6% that means people buying an ebike are paying an additional 27.2% in tax on the retail price? That equates to £384.69 on a 705Torque with 575Wh battery, if only we made the same as the Government does on our bikes! Why are you surprised at this? You've been doing the same every time you fill up your car. Firstly fuel tax is put onto fuel then vat is applied to the lot. I bought my wife a ring in South Africa this year. Like a mug I declared it to customs. They applied vat to the whole price including the SA sales tax. Not impressed.
October 13, 20178 yr , we have built our bikes in Germany before now, they just were not as good as the Chinese models. ! Quote of the decade there. But that is what protectionism does to your industry, it stagnates and loses its cutting edge.
October 13, 20178 yr Author Quote of the decade there. But that is what protectionism does to your industry, it stagnates and loses its cutting edge. That's not really fair....us importers from China have continually updated our e-bikes,without much increase in prices,despite the dramatic fall in the value of the pound v US dollar. Look at the difference in weight and technology over 5 years. KudosDave
October 14, 20178 yr Quote of the decade there. But that is what protectionism does to your industry, it stagnates and loses its cutting edge. I agree Mike, losing China will certainly damage the industry. The European manufacturers simply don’t like the competition. The Chinese built and expanded the market now the European manufacturers want it for themselves. Here is one remainer rapidly turning into a leaver!
October 14, 20178 yr That's not really fair....us importers from China have continually updated our e-bikes,without much increase in prices,despite the dramatic fall in the value of the pound v US dollar. Look at the difference in weight and technology over 5 years. KudosDave I think that’s the point Mike is making?
October 14, 20178 yr https://www.orbea.com/gb-en/brands/gain-road/ European. Made by blokes and women in Spain. And it isn't even expensive! Their "living" minimum wage is about the same as your UK one. Why can't you make bikes like that in the UK?
October 14, 20178 yr https://www.orbea.com/gb-en/brands/gain-road/ European. Made by blokes and women in Spain. And it isn't even expensive! Their "living" minimum wage is about the same as your UK one. Why can't you make bikes like that in the UK? We like our 'knowledge economy' - we prefer keeping our fingers away from workshop grease and shop keeping, buying and selling to producing.
October 14, 20178 yr Author https://www.orbea.com/gb-en/brands/gain-road/ European. Made by blokes and women in Spain. And it isn't even expensive! Their "living" minimum wage is about the same as your UK one. Why can't you make bikes like that in the UK? Except the 'Spanish' e-bikes are often fully manufactured and assembled in Shanghai....I have a pile of EN 15194 certificates that are from a very well known Spanish e-bike supplier that are from SFS Shanghai. We cannot assemble a bike for 50 dollars like they do in China and the U.K consumer demands product as cheap as possible,sadly 'made in the U.K.' has no price cache. I have some of the Kudos bikes made in Tianjin,the manufacturer is an expert at making frames and seats,I was shown around the factory and there are piles of frames on pallets with well known Austrian and German ID labels,some even have labels in German!!!! This manufacturer produces some wonderful product,the quality of their welding and the heat treatment facilities are expertly controlled. They make some beautiful sports bikes,with high end spec (D2 electronic gearing) but the anti dumping duty makes it uneconomic to import to the UK.....maybe post Brexit if the anti dumping duty is eliminated it may be attractive to import to the UK? KudosDave
October 14, 20178 yr Author I agree Mike, losing China will certainly damage the industry. The European manufacturers simply don’t like the competition. The Chinese built and expanded the market now the European manufacturers want it for themselves. Here is one remainer rapidly turning into a leaver! David...... Don't swop sides just because you think that our government will delete anti dumping duties post Brexit. May could easily continue with the anti-dumping duties,explaining that she is protecting our vulnerable industries. She would pocket the duty rather than give it to the EU,very tempting to a government short of money !!! KudosDave
October 14, 20178 yr Except the 'Spanish' e-bikes are often fully manufactured and assembled in Shanghai....I have a pile of EN 15194 certificates that are from a very well known Spanish e-bike supplier that are from SFS Shanghai. We cannot assemble a bike for 50 dollars like they do in China and the U.K consumer demands product as cheap as possible,sadly 'made in the U.K.' has no price cache. I have some of the Kudos bikes made in Tianjin,the manufacturer is an expert at making frames and seats,I was shown around the factory and there are piles of frames on pallets with well known Austrian and German ID labels,some even have labels in German!!!! This manufacturer produces some wonderful product,the quality of their welding and the heat treatment facilities are expertly controlled. They make some beautiful sports bikes,with high end spec (D2 electronic gearing) but the anti dumping duty makes it uneconomic to import to the UK.....maybe post Brexit if the anti dumping duty is eliminated it may be attractive to import to the UK? KudosDave There is an article somewhere saying that the top three in the Tour de France in 2012 rode three different brands and all three frames came from the same factory in China... "Orbea designs and builds bicycles, with some of the higher-cost bikes being made in Portugal but all the others made at the Orbea factory in Mallabia" I chose Orbea on purpose, the factory is 75 km from here. My point is that you can make e-bikes in Europe and they can be competitively priced on the market.
October 14, 20178 yr Author There is an article somewhere saying that the top three in the Tour de France in 2012 rode three different brands and all three frames came from the same factory in China... "Orbea designs and builds bicycles, with some of the higher-cost bikes being made in Portugal but all the others made at the Orbea factory in Mallabia" I chose Orbea on purpose, the factory is 75 km from here. My point is that you can make e-bikes in Europe and they can be competitively priced on the market. Batribike tried to build e-bikes in the UK....to my knowledge it was not a success ,the bikes were ok but IMHO opinion £500 too much,they reduced the price from £1700 to £1200. The bike was not dissimilar to my Kudos mountain style bike. KudosDave
October 14, 20178 yr IMHO opinion £500 too much,they reduced the price from £1700 to £1200. I don't think assembling e-bikes in the UK would add more than £50-£75 to a bike. All the parts, except the frame, would attract less duty on import to start with. The alloy frame accounts for about £35, anti-dumping levy on the frame is not that significant. If Batribike cut £500 off their price then it's more to do with commercial pressure than production cost. The biggest problem I can see with assembling bikes in the UK is the seasonal nature of the e-bike business. We sell more than twice as many bikes in the summer months compared to winter months. If we run our own assembly, we'd need to warehouse the bikes for 6-9 months on average and the cost of premises is very high in the UK.
October 14, 20178 yr Author I don't think assembling e-bikes in the UK would add more than £50-£75 to a bike. All the parts, except the frame, would attract less duty on import to start with. The alloy frame accounts for about £35, anti-dumping levy on the frame is not that significant. If Batribike cut £500 off their price then it's more to do with commercial pressure than production cost. The biggest problem I can see with assembling bikes in the UK is the seasonal nature of the e-bike business. We sell more than twice as many bikes in the summer months compared to winter months. If we run our own assembly, we'd need to warehouse the bikes for 6-9 months on average and the cost of premises is very high in the UK. Go for it,it will be a pleasure to see it a success... The biggest problem I see is part sourcing.....the Chinese have constant parts supply problems,this is made worse by the Chinese government closing polluting factories to try to improve their pollution problems. Recently they shut for 2 months all plating companies in vulnerable regions,try building a bike without plated parts!!! You only need one part not available to stop production. The Chinese are in constant communication to overcome these delays,they talk to each other to stockpile parts and look for alternatives....this is why the Chinese are constantly changing specs. A UK builder would have big problems sourcing continuity of parts. At least you could legitametly put a Union Jack on the bikes,hehe,old story amongst Pedelec. KudosDave
October 14, 20178 yr At least you could legitametly put a Union Jack on the bikes,hehe,old story amongst Pedelec. perhaps but probably not 'made in the UK' - the UK contents is tiny, about 5 hours of labour.
October 14, 20178 yr perhaps but probably not 'made in the UK' - the UK contents is tiny, about 5 hours of labour. You can. KTM have a "Made in Austria" sticker on them, we had to go though a lot of hoops to get it, and prove the bicycle is made in Austria... which it is. The parts of the bicycle come from all over the world, as indeed do the staff in Austria.
October 14, 20178 yr I agree Mike, losing China will certainly damage the industry. The European manufacturers simply don’t like the competition. The Chinese built and expanded the market now the European manufacturers want it for themselves. Here is one remainer rapidly turning into a leaver! Don't forget that the EU isn't some foreign entity David... we are part of it. So this decision will be made by the EU with us involved. If / when we do leave you might find the UK was the strongest voice calling for it, or indeed that the UK wanted a higher duty to encourage UK brands to grow.
October 14, 20178 yr Author Does the Chinese government pay subsidies to its bike manufacturers? I have purchased from China for 15 years,I now have 130 plus suppliers,the Chinese love whisky and often open up over a bottle of Johnnie Walker(ganbei!) but without exception they ask me not to repeat what they have revealed. So I will honour their requests,it is a question you will have to ask elsewhere....just to say the Chinese economic miracle is driven from the top. Sorry,I am normally open but not in these matters. KudosDave Edited October 14, 20178 yr by Kudoscycles
October 14, 20178 yr just to say the Chinese economic miracle is driven from the top I knew that. The Chinese have a deterministic rather than empiricist approach to economics and business. And I've heard similar things about the Chinese method of dominating the solar panel industry. I just don't know the specific methods they use. I think batteries is one of their next targets. The logical response from the West would be to become more deterministic themselves instead of being so pedantic about free markets. The Chinese know that mixing free markets with top down planning in the right way is a killer combo. If the Chinese are subsidising then it isn't wrong for the E.U. to introduce tariffs. It's just perverse to do so while extolling hands-off free market globalism.
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