I'm interested in the reality as opposed the speculation/opinions regarding reliability.

 

[mention=44403]Heinzja[/mention] care to enlighten us on the actual situation if you know it in Germany ? Considering there are many more mid drive ebikes in Europe, and the Germans have been buying Bosch mid drive motors in huge numbers well for many years before they have in the UK, there will be a lot of 5+ year old Bosch mid drive motors in use. Is it actually a wide spread issue with reliability ?

 

 

PS Why are ebikes so expensive anyway? They’re pretty simple mechanical devices after all!

 

I'd say there's never been a better time to score a deal, there are huge discounts available, clearly a glut of stock thats not shifting

 

Take this example below, was £5k now £2k, check the spec and components, the parts alone would nearly make up the cost of the bike, that's before you add in the yamaha motor and 720wh battery

 

https://www.paulscycles.co.uk/bikes/electric-bikes/raymon-trailray-160e-100-29-electric-mountain-bike-deep-red__11880

I'm interested in the reality as opposed the speculation/opinions regarding reliability.

 

[mention=44403]Heinzja[/mention] care to enlighten us on the actual situation if you know it in Germany ? Considering there are many more mid drive ebikes in Europe, and the Germans have been buying Bosch mid drive motors in huge numbers well for many years before they have in the UK, there will be a lot of 5+ year old Bosch mid drive motors in use. Is it actually a wide spread issue with reliability ?

 

Of course Bosch mid-motors are reliable! They’ve been making them long enough, in large quantities, to have ironed out all the wrinkles long ago. And they’re not exactly complex, cutting-edge devices anyway - at least, not compared to your average car engine that is bewilderingly complex and highly stressed running red hot while spinning at 20x the speed of an e-bike motor, but cheap to make and unfailingly reliable for many tens of thousands of miles.

{Quote start:} “ @Heinzja care to enlighten us on the actual situation if you know it in Germany ? Considering there are many more mid drive ebikes in Europe, [sic]“ {Quote end}

Yes, I can enlighten you about Bosch. Bosch is everywhere in Germany—from power tools to freezers, from spark plugs to electronic injection systems in Mercedes, Porsche, Volkswagen, Audi, and BMW. Cars and motorcycles everywhere have Bosch components inside: ABS, lights, electric systems...

 

**Service Network:** Bosch Dienst is everywhere, with a qualified master as the owner who trains youth to become car electric technicians. They repair starter motors, dynamos, and everything on-site, or sell new or certified repaired parts. Scrapyards are used only by foreigners or people who need a bit of life experience to later find their way to a Bosch service. Because, as the name suggests, you will find scrap at a scrapyard.

 

Here in England, I have to mention Lucas, and everyone starts running away. Here, you can buy a syringe and start injecting Botox without any further qualifications. The same goes for hairdressers, nail studios, tattoo parlors, and painting and decorating.... and Bike-shops....

In Leicester, Halfords is not even able to use the USB service port on a Bosch mid-motor, but selling new bikes with such a motor is not a problem.

 

Ask any professional or even handyman which power tools are the best: blue Bosch comes out on top (green Bosch is for DIY/B&Q). Wherever there is an electric motor inside, Bosch has held a leading position for many, many years (I still have some Bosch power tools from the 1960s that work fine and without any problems).

 

Most Germans own a car and have experience with Bosch products, so it is not surprising that when spending money on an electric bike and Bosch is mentioned, the choice is clear. I wonder what would happen if Lucas (they still exist?) would sell/produce electric bikes...

As many of you know I live in the Alps and here 99% of bikes are mid motor, approx 85% of which are Bosch. The only wheel motor bikes you see are owned by tourists and they do not go in the mountains. The terrain is typically 10% average gradients for many kms with lots of steeper sections so puts a lot of strain on motors.

I have a couple of friends who have bike shops and sell many ebikes, one has a fleet of over 60 hire ebikes, neither has seen any motor failures on any Bosch powered bike. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it doesn't seen common to me.

You just have to look on here for many questions about wheel motors not engaging or stuttering or PAS problems to realise that wheel motors are also not 100% reliable.

[mention=44403]Heinzja[/mention], Lucas was taken over by American company TRW and subsequently by German ZF group.

Edited February 10, 20251 yr by chris_n

I don't know much about the brand admittedly but if they are using mainly mid-drive motors I don't see how they can be that reliable or easy to maintain. Surely very proprietary with expensive parts and repairs only allowed through dealerships who probably have to send parts away. I'm writing this from memory so apologies if I've got it completely wrong but I thought the Birdy folding bike was one of their products and that was a very unreliable folding bike with many frame failures. It was made for them by a factory in Taiwan and at least the first version was not well engineered at all. Another overly complex design with a high failure rate. So at least for that model definitely not incredibly well built and definitely went wrong and didn't last forever. The Birdy is made in Taiwan so can we assume most of their bike frames and forks at least are sourced from Asia and if so the factory used would surely dictate manufacturing quality.

 

I'm not knocking Suntour forks but I wouldn't say they are premium quality I would say OK quality and just because they are fitted to a premium brand doesn't make them magically better than the same fork fitted to a much cheaper ebike.

 

As far as I know BB you are correct, RM frames are made in TW they certainly were when we were working with them. TW makes very high end both alloy and carbon frames.

 

The Birdy is an incredible little folding bike, and was R+Ms first offering. It’s huge in Japan and TW where bikes signed by both Riese and Muller are worth a small fortune. There’s a small industry built up around “pimping” Birdy bikes. Due to both front and rear suspension it feels almost the same as a full size bicycle and is so much better than a Brompton IMO. They changed to a monocoque design about 12 years ago which solved the frame issue. I believe it still holds the record for the fastest fold (although it takes a lot of practice!) They attempted a Birdy e bike about 10 years ago but dropped it.

 

We are considering selling the Birdy again.

 

All the best, David

I agree with Bonzo B in post 19 - hub motors are better suited to the new and fast growing mainstream e-bike market. Cheap, efficient, reliable, and now I see Bafang has introduced a hub motor with integral 3-speed automatic gears (fitted to a new ADO model). That’s a game-changer. The next Bosch board meeting should be interesting.

 

With respect to Riese & Muller, it’s relatively easy to make a very good e-bike for £5k, especially when all the key technical components are bought-in from third parties anyway. It’s much harder to do it on a tight budget, but the Chinese are practised experts at just that kind of challenge and IMHO they will continue to squeeze the Euro brands hard in the mainstream. It’s inevitable.

 

When markets go mainstream, cost is king. I’m not sure the old business model, targeting cycling enthusiasts and based around manufacturers, distributors and local retailers all taking a slice, will cut it.

 

PS Why are ebikes so expensive anyway? They’re pretty simple mechanical devices after all! Take a look at this new Honda CB350S motorbike. It’s bluddy good, a proper Honda, made in Japan, with quality components. It’s fairly basic as these things go (just a 350cc single cylinder) but that’s bang on the market right now and it costs £3949 https://www.google.com/search?q=new+honda+350+mcn&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:3d5372ba,vid:rOw6CFcC12o,st:0

 

You made exactly the point I would have made. Why are good e-bikes so expensive. I would have made exactly the comparison you did with IC motorcycles. They run reliably for tens of thousands of miles, When properly serviced, small Hondas will do a hundred thousand miles. I know a guy who has commuted on CG125s for decades and he has had two that went around the clock with only normal maintenance and they are inexpensive, and they were still fine. These motors are about ten times as complex as any ebike motor. Those little Honda Motors live happily at 5 000 revs to about 8000 revs and in top gear, in an hour the engine will do 360,000 revolutions.

 

I turned up at one of my MOTs a few years ago on a small Honda, near thirty years old, with a bag of tools bungeed to the luggage rack. This is a habit I built up fifty years ago when I rode about on old British Motorbikes made by BSA - you went anywhere further than the end of your street without tools at your peril in my experience. The old MOT man, nearing 70, said, 'What do you want them for man? It's a Honda.'

Mid drive motors aren't quality, they are incredibly complex with a high failure rate and they put all their power through the drivetrain so that wears down very quickly compared to hub motors which extend the life of drivetrains because they work in parallel.

 

...

 

Brose mid-drive motor below, lots of bearings, a belt, plastic/nylon cogs etc. A huge number of failure points. It's frankly rubbish technology that we never needed. Hub motors provide the most environmentally friendly option for road based ebikes.

 

A bit too general!

 

Mid-drive motors have their negative points, but it is not as bad as you paint it, and they don't all look as daft as that Brose inside!

 

Take rare earth elements, for example, as used to make the magnets in the motors. Compare the amount in even a small hub motor to that in the tiny, higher speed motor in the mid-drive: 5, even 10 times as much. And look at the quantity in any direct drive motor. How much of that is recycled at end of life? About none?

 

That smaller motor means more gears and bearings, but the plastic and metal there is all recyclable and lower environmental impact than the magnets.

 

Drive train wear is higher, yes, but for an EAPC 250W motor, not absurdly so. A cassette every 5 or 6,000 miles and two or three chains with it has been my experience over nearly 21,000 miles.

 

Manufacturers are responding to the wear issue with new designs. Shimano Cues for example. I don't have any data yet, but the fundamentals of thicker roots to the cassette teeth and redesigned ramps to give the chain an easier time during gear changes lead them to claim 3 times the life expectancy. If that is true, then this problem is solved.

 

Hub motors have their own short life issues. When used in hilly terrain, or at higher power than the manufacturer intended by substituting a higher current controller, the battery is subjected to high current demand rather often, shortening its life.

 

Both motor configurations have their sensible use cases, and riders have their preferences.

 

The only point on which I wholeheartedly agree with you is the lack of easy access to the parts needed for service and maintenance.

A bit too general!

 

Mid-drive motors have their negative points, but it is not as bad as you paint it, and they don't all look as daft as that Brose inside!

 

Take rare earth elements, for example, as used to make the magnets in the motors. Compare the amount in even a small hub motor to that in the tiny, higher speed motor in the mid-drive: 5, even 10 times as much. And look at the quantity in any direct drive motor. How much of that is recycled at end of life? About none?

 

That smaller motor means more gears and bearings, but the plastic and metal there is all recyclable and lower environmental impact than the magnets.

 

Drive train wear is higher, yes, but for an EAPC 250W motor, not absurdly so. A cassette every 5 or 6,000 miles and two or three chains with it has been my experience over nearly 21,000 miles.

 

Manufacturers are responding to the wear issue with new designs. Shimano Cues for example. I don't have any data yet, but the fundamentals of thicker roots to the cassette teeth and redesigned ramps to give the chain an easier time during gear changes lead them to claim 3 times the life expectancy. If that is true, then this problem is solved.

 

Hub motors have their own short life issues. When used in hilly terrain, or at higher power than the manufacturer intended by substituting a higher current controller, the battery is subjected to high current demand rather often, shortening its life.

 

Both motor configurations have their sensible use cases, and riders have their preferences.

 

The only point on which I wholeheartedly agree with you is the lack of easy access to the parts needed for service and maintenance.

 

Mid drive motors get a terrible press on here. I've got a Bafang BBS01 and it has been very good indeed. I know some of the early ones had water ingress problems, but I think that was sorted out long ago. In hilly terrain they are vastly superior since they are never required to labour at inefficient rotor speed.

 

Of course if people owned bad examples - they will hate them. You can make anything badly, but you can also make it well.

Just to put drivetrain costs in context:

 

My 11 speed setup uses a cassette that has rrp £70, but always available at £45, and by watching Ebay etc I pay £17 to £25.

 

11 speed chains, usually SRAM PC1110 or 1130, but whatever branded one is available at the time, never more than £12.99, and last year stocked up in a sale at £6.99. Should have bought more than 4!

 

So about £50 - £60 a year on drivetrain wear. No bike shop costs as I do all that myself.

Just to put drivetrain costs in context:

 

My 11 speed setup uses a cassette that has rrp £70, but always available at £45, and by watching Ebay etc I pay £17 to £25.

 

11 speed chains, usually SRAM PC1110 or 1130, but whatever branded one is available at the time, never more than £12.99, and last year stocked up in a sale at £6.99. Should have bought more than 4!

 

So about £50 - £60 a year on drivetrain wear. No bike shop costs as I do all that myself.

And you ride much more than most of us do Matthew.

Just to put drivetrain costs in context:

 

My 11 speed setup uses a cassette that has rrp £70, but always available at £45, and by watching Ebay etc I pay £17 to £25.

 

11 speed chains, usually SRAM PC1110 or 1130, but whatever branded one is available at the time, never more than £12.99, and last year stocked up in a sale at £6.99. Should have bought more than 4!

 

So about £50 - £60 a year on drivetrain wear. No bike shop costs as I do all that myself.

Yep same here with my BBS01 bikes. Just accept these things wear out quicker on midrives than hub drives, it's obvious they will, dunno why people bang on about it all the time. As you say, easy job to get discounts and fitting them yourself is a doddle

We had a member who was obsessed by the chain being a 'single point of failure' on a mid-drive; forgetting how many other single points of failure there are in a bike or ebike.

We had a member who was obsessed by the chain being a 'single point of failure' on a mid-drive; forgetting how many other single points of failure there are in a bike or ebike.

I have a 10 mile uphill heavily laden ride this evening, from leaving a train at just after 10pm. Hoping my 9,600km cassette and 4,000km chain don't single point fail!

That e-bike use increases the wear and tear of a bike is self-explanatory. Tyres on the motor wheel wear out quicker, brake pads on calipers or discs wear out quicker, and drivetrains have a shorter life—all self-explanatory. But at least we live longer (provided a car accident doesn’t shorten it).

Cycling, whether normal or with electric help, is the best anyone can do. I have cycled all my life, and now in my mid-70s, I feel the age slowly creeping up. But thanks to e-bike use, I am able (and willing) to cycle for longer times and distances.

 

I am never ill; when I get wet in our horrible weather here in England, I might catch a little cold, but when I am forced to use public transport, then I have a proper flu for a week or two. Cycling is the best and healthiest activity anyone can ever take up, regardless of the bad image associated with it here in England (the continent is different—see Benelux, Germany, France, Italy, Spain...). I have never seen a “fitness club” from the inside (I have only seen idiots on static bikes through large windows on display), but I am fit for my age.

 

At the moment, I cycle daily (for almost 2 months now) 60 km to visit my wife in the hospital, where she is after an accident at home. I doubt I would do this without an e-bike (even considering that I was a successful racing cyclist in my younger years and trained up to 200 km daily several times a week, besides races over the same distance in Belgium, the Netherlands, and France). Wear and tear of equipment was never an issue; it was normal and was never mentioned....

Rather than suggesting that cheaper Chinese Ebikes will be a kick in the teeth for our Producers , credit should be given to them for making Ebikes mainstream in the first place . Fourteen years ago I bought my first Ebike a Chinese built Batribike Quartz for £700 which people thought very expensive but it is still going strong , as are all my later purchases of Chinese Ebikes .Some on here are happy to decry them as junk but my experience is the exact opposite .

If you prefer to pay extra for peace of mind for support then Suppliers like Woosh , Volt and Wispa will give you that , the choice is yours . Support from cheaper Suppliers can be hit and miss as I found out with the saga of my NCM Paris Folder . NCM is part of the LEISGER Group of Hanover which was also the Designer of my Batribike Quartz although it was built under German Supervision in China . With a pedigree like that I assumed all would be well . After Covid, Importers were overstocked and Leon Cycle UK were no different , the Paris was half price from it`s normal £1299 and after advising someone to purchase one I couldn`t resist and ordered one . All went well for a few months until it started losing power intermittently . Despite 8 months left on the Warranty the Importer at Manchester couldn`t be contacted over a prolonged period .In the end after doing all the checks I correctly identified a faulty Controller and purchased a replacement from a bikeshop in the Black Forest Region of Germany .

After fitting the new Controller the NCM Paris Folder has turned out to be an excellent purchase , well made , powerful and with long range . At 86 years of age I never thought I would be doing 42 mile rides .

The purpose of my story is to point out the pitfalls in purchasing an Ebike from some sources if you are not handy with the tools .

This Paris Folder at the initial price would not fall into the cheap Chinese category but at half price it would . Also although the Owner of Leon is Chinese the Paris Folder was made in Vietnam .

I have a 10 mile uphill heavily laden ride this evening, from leaving a train at just after 10pm. Hoping my 9,600km cassette and 4,000km chain don't single point fail!

Good luck! Will be alright - if it has last this far it will last more...

A good idea would be always to have a chain tool and some chain bits with you... they don’t weigh much and like always you will not need them when you got them with you! Like an Umbrella... if you got an Umbrella it’s not raining... but...

Good luck! Will be alright - if it has last this far it will last more...

A good idea would be always to have a chain tool and some chain bits with you... they don’t weigh much and like always you will not need them when you got them with you! Like an Umbrella... if you got an Umbrella it’s not raining... but...

Today I 'ride my luck'! On a normal long ride I have spoke key, cassette spline tool and chain tool. Plus ordinary tools of course. Carry it and it will not be needed!

 

There is an emergency Landrover if bad things happen!

I ask if anybody decrying the hill-climbing ability of hub-motors has tried one with 48v? Although 48v has always been legal, it's only recently that manufacturers seem to have started adopting it. The increase from 36v to 48v gives an immediate 30% increase in torque and power at the same time as a slight increase in efficiency. This gives a performance level that would satisfy any typical ebike rider that uses their bike for commuting and touring, and their bike would be able to easily deal with the steepest hills encountered.

One day I will, but I do not expect to be able to climb any of my favourite Scottish hills with such a setup.

 

150kg up 625m, moderately steep without a problem? I don't think so.

Let's talk about reliability and running costs. Firstly, people spending £500 to buy a catalogue ebike on a whim, often don't look after them. Any ebike, including Bosch, if left out in the garden for 6 months at a time without use is going to get problems. That's typical of the posts we get on this forum about stuck or slipping clutches. Most of the other problems we hear about from bikes with hub-motors tend to be when someone acquired a bike of unknown history in a non-working condition.

 

The Ebike motor Centre are doing a roaring trade in repairing Bosch motors. Some of the damage inside those motors, mainly due to water ingress, is frightening, so let's not pretend that they're the epitome of reliability.

 

Recently, there were some videos posted of an EMTB service centre, where they did routine servicing of full suspension mid-drive type ebikes, where the guy said a £1000 service bill is fairly typical. That didn't include any servicing to the electrical system other than cleaning. People need to bear that in mind if they can't do their own servicing, and even if they can, they need to think about the cost of the service parts on bikes like that. In some cases, the cost of a rear cassette that needs replacing every year, would be more than the cost of my complete new Argos bike, of which the steel cassette would probably last the lifetime of the bike.

 

One more thing. People that spend thousands on expensive ebikes tend to take them back to the dealer for servicing and repairs, so we don't hear about their problems or costs. Instead most of what we see hear is from old bikes or ones bought mail order with no support, so don't let it colour your thoughts about which get the most problems.

One day I will, but I do not expect to be able to climb any of my favourite Scottish hills with such a setup.

 

150kg up 625m, moderately steep without a problem? I don't think so.

A 48v 201 rpm AKM128 running with a conservative 20A would do that without pedalling. A code 16 Bafang BPM would be even better, though it's hard to find the 250w versions now.

A 48v 201 rpm AKM128 running with a conservative 20A would do that without pedalling. A code 16 Bafang BPM would be even better, though it's hard to find the 250w versions now.

... whilst killing my battery with 1kW power demand!

A 48v 201 rpm AKM128 running with a conservative 20A would do that without pedalling. A code 16 Bafang BPM would be even better, though it's hard to find the 250w versions now.

 

48v at 20A is 960w so yes, of course a hub motor with that kind of power will pull up most hills. That’s exactly what I’ve got and it works okay if you can take a decent run at it and keep the motor spinning. But if you have to stop for any reason, or even just slow to let another bike come down, you’re dead.

 

A gearbox will always win on hills, and if you have a loaded cargo e-bike and need to launch the thing smoothly and safely on any kind of slope, you’ll know all about that. This is where the mainstream market is moving - towards regular consumers with everyday wants and needs, and away from enthusiasts.

 

That’s why I’m so interested to see this new Bafang hub motor with three integral automatic gears - mid-motor lugging power, at a fraction of the cost. That’ll put the cat amongst…!

https://www.cyclingelectric.com/news/bafang-motor-three-speed-automatic