February 10, 20251 yr Certainly not all Chinese products are bad. iPhones are manufactured in China (Foxconn... like HP and others), and Samsung is from Korea. So if bikes are from China, Taiwan, or wherever, if the frame is constructed according to our physics—my first e-bike was a PowaBike Commuter, which was an import as well. I still have it and have never had a failure. Three 12V SLA batteries in, and £80 later, I cycled for another 3-4 years like a cowboy sitting on a wild horse. (The batteries, plus the frame construction to house the battery pack, made the “top tube” rather wide, so that after a few hours of “cycling,” you walk like a cowboy after a rodeo.) But what do you not do to collect experiences? The conversion kits, front or rear, have provided a big service to the e-bike market because, in the beginning, the frames of e-bikes were horrible, including bikes from Freego. All were built about 20 cm longer to house the battery behind the seat post, which made the bike funny to ride without motor help (like a tandem with one person on it). If all bikes were like my “Commuter” without motor help, no one (including me) would touch a bike anymore. A 40 kg weight for the bike, big tyres on it, heavy wheels—it's like attempting to jog in wellies... horrible! The same applies to the hire bikes/Santander bikes or whatever name you give them. Nobody steals these bikes (only for the Bafang front wheel and the battery). The frame is worthless as a bicycle, and everyone can see from 100 m that it is stolen, and that is the idea behind the construction. The problem with mid motors is that the frame is made for it (I got lifetime warranty on the frame! For my bike —how long is that? 5 years? What is the lifetime of a frame?). If you really want to try, you have to spend the best part of £2000 for this experience, while the usual cheap electric bikes are, in reality, factory-converted normal bikes, which cycle nicely and normally, even without motor help, and the extra weight is just a few kg for the motor and battery.
February 10, 20251 yr 48v at 20A is 960w so yes, of course a hub motor with that kind of power will pull up most hills. That’s exactly what I’ve got and it works okay if you can take a decent run at it and keep the motor spinning. But if you have to stop for any reason, or even just slow to let another bike come down, you’re dead. A gearbox will always win on hills, and if you have a loaded cargo e-bike and need to launch the thing smoothly and safely on any kind of slope, you’ll know all about that. This is where the mainstream market is moving - towards regular consumers with everyday wants and needs, and away from enthusiasts. That’s why I’m so interested to see this new Bafang hub motor with three integral automatic gears - mid-motor lugging power, at a fraction of the cost. That’ll put the cat amongst…! https://www.cyclingelectric.com/news/bafang-motor-three-speed-automatic Which motor do you have? What's its max speed? Mine doesn't suffer from that problem. It will power all the way up Ironbridge Gorge without pedalling if I want it to, and that's without running it at maximum power. Do you understand the affect of different motor windings on torque, efficiency and hill-climbing ability? It sounds like you have the wrong one for your needs. If I understand that Bafang right, the 3-speed gears won't help you. The gears are between the pedals and the hub, not the motor and the hub. Only the Xiongda 2-speed motor has different ratios between the motor and the hub. It's been available for over 10 years. If you want a hill-climber, it works very well, but it has one drawback, which is that you can't push the bike backwards, otherwise you risk breaking the gears. The 48v version is like a winch when it comes to hills. No Bosch crank motor comes close, assuming normal gearing. Edited February 10, 20251 yr by saneagle
February 10, 20251 yr Not all Bikes from Germany are hi-spec high price products, My Basic Ortler see icon pic has rim brakes and pre delivery etc was under £300 new, while not the optimum candidate for conversion it suits me..
February 10, 20251 yr Which motor do you have? What's its max speed? Mine doesn't suffer from that problem. It will power all the way up Ironbridge Gorge without pedalling if I want it to, and that's without running it at maximum power. Do you understand the affect of different motor windings on torque, efficiency and hill-climbing ability? It sounds like you have the wrong one for your needs. I was referring to my RadRunner-Plus previously, with Rad’s regular Bafang hub motor, plus EggRider maxed at 19A. I believe Rad uses the same motor in all markets, just software limited according to local regs. I’m aware of the changes that can be made to motor characteristics with different windings, and that’s one of the things that attracted me to my new-to-me RadRunner-3 Plus (that, and the greatly improved frame). Rad claims to have optimised the motor for low-end torque rather than top speed and they’ve done an excellent job! I have an EggRider sitting here ready to go, but I haven’t fitted it yet because this new motor is way, way more punchy straight out of the box and I’m really enjoying it just the way it is (EU/UK legal). I still have to pedal hard up one local hill but I live in the flatlands of East Anglia so that’s not too often. If I understand that Bafang right, the 3-speed gears won't help you. The gears are between the pedals and the hub, not the motor and the hub. Only the Xiongda 2-speed motor has different ratios between the motor and the hub. It's been available for over 10 years. If you want a hill-climber, it works very well, but it has one drawback, which is that you can't push the bike backwards, otherwise you risk breaking the gears. The 48v version is like a winch when it comes to hills. No Bosch crank motor comes close, assuming normal gearing. All I can say is, I hope you’re mistaken and that this new 3-speed Bafang hub motor does indeed have a proper gearbox. I don’t know for sure one way or the other. I kind-of assumed it was a development of their existing 2-speed auto hub, as used by ADO and others, that seems to work pretty well on hills (Electroheads review link below). If I’m right, Bafang may have found the Holy Grail for hub motors; if I’m wrong, well, what a waste of time! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhaj-6e96OE:660
February 10, 20251 yr I was referring to my RadRunner-Plus previously, with Rad’s regular Bafang hub motor, plus EggRider maxed at 19A. I believe Rad uses the same motor in all markets, just software limited according to local regs. I’m aware of the changes that can be made to motor characteristics with different windings, and that’s one of the things that attracted me to my new-to-me RadRunner-3 Plus (that, and the greatly improved frame). Rad claims to have optimised the motor for low-end torque rather than top speed and they’ve done an excellent job! I have an EggRider sitting here ready to go, but I haven’t fitted it yet because this new motor is way, way more punchy straight out of the box and I’m really enjoying it just the way it is (EU/UK legal). I still have to pedal hard up one local hill but I live in the flatlands of East Anglia so that’s not too often. All I can say is, I hope you’re mistaken and that this new 3-speed Bafang hub motor does indeed have a proper gearbox. I don’t know for sure one way or the other. I kind-of assumed it was a development of their existing 2-speed auto hub, as used by ADO and others, that seems to work pretty well on hills (Electroheads review link below). If I’m right, Bafang may have found the Holy Grail for hub motors; if I’m wrong, well, what a waste of time! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhaj-6e96OE:660 I hope I'm mistaken too, but, sadly, this seems to show that the motor rotor is fixed to the hub's side-plate, so will always rotate at the speed of the hub. It's not clear if that's the motor or just the hub-gears. The more I look at it, the more it looks like just the gears. I need a drawing of the whole motor to be sure. Edit: I've done a lot of searching, but can't find any picture of a 3-speed motor. It therefore must be just hub gears for a front or mid motor. Excitement over. Can you show anything otherwise? If your motor is standard across a range of bikes for different markets, it would be a high speed one limited for the UK market, which probably explains its lack of torque for pulling away. Edited February 10, 20251 yr by saneagle
February 10, 20251 yr https://allensebikes.co.uk/product/ado-air-20-pro-250w-e-bike/ I've seen that. It's the two-speed and no mention of the motor changing into a lower gear.
February 10, 20251 yr I've seen that. It's the two-speed and no mention of the motor changing into a lower gear. I don't think the motor changes gear. I think the gear is for the pedal assist. Since assist is by the torque sensor, any range enhancement is through rider effort. The battery though a very neat arrangement, is not that big at all. The high quoted figures mean the rider did much of the work. That girl in the other video is young, strong and five foot ten. She can likely put in a lot of work.
February 10, 20251 yr I hope I'm mistaken too, but, sadly, this seems to show that the motor rotor is fixed to the hub's side-plate, so will always rotate at the speed of the hub. It's not clear if that's the motor or just the hub-gears. The more I look at it, the more it looks like just the gears. I need a drawing of the whole motor to be sure. Edit: I've done a lot of searching, but can't find any picture of a 3-speed motor. It therefore must be just hub gears for a front or mid motor. Excitement over. Can you show anything otherwise? If your motor is standard across a range of bikes for different markets, it would be a high speed one limited for the UK market, which probably explains its lack of torque for pulling away. No, I can’t find anything much at all. Maybe I’ve been had. Too much wishful thinking on my behalf. Apologies if that’s set any hares running, but what a damned shame! I’m not too unhappy though. My RadRunner-3 Plus is proving to be an excellent foundation for everything I want (some of that particular to my personal wish list) and I’m reliably informed that with the EggRider I can safely ramp the motor up to 25A/1200w. More than enough for me and a few hills.
February 11, 20251 yr I for one welcome the prospect of a greatly increased number of new cheapo Chinese ebikes hitting the UK market, because with the inevitable increase in problems reported and resolved on this forum, I may eventually comprehend what the hell those ever mysterious WTF PLC KT hub motor controller settings are for and do. I imagine three gears should be enough for that new Bafang hub motor with integrated hub gears (five and nine etc. gear versions next?), if the amps can be upped for at least 720W on a boring normal sized ebike - three is certainly enough for my 20" wheeled legal 720W 36V mid-drive BBS01B converted folding bike, which is a spritely and lively enjoyable ride owing to it's ickle wheel torque advantage. I don't see that hot chick flying up those puny hills like I can at 25kph, with her heap of overpriced crap lol. And I do so with unfit ease. Here's me climbing a hill hitting the 25kph limit with only 18.4A = a legal 662.4W. Beat this hot chick, with all those crappy pre-made bikes! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCBYMm-Vvk8:71 One of these days, I'm going to find the puny hill this fat bloke keeps going on about and fly up at 25kph. BAFANG SMASH! I hid my LaceArmstrong.com steroids somewhere safe, so safe I can't remember where. I'm experiencing roid rage regardless. If you want a better ebike, assemble one! Edited February 11, 20251 yr by guerney
February 11, 20251 yr Mid drive motors aren't quality, they are incredibly complex with a high failure rate Yes I've noticed that with the huge number of people joining here asking why their mid drive has stopped functioning. On no wait ...
February 11, 20251 yr Yes I've noticed that with the huge number of people joining here asking why their mid drive has stopped functioning. On no wait ... Here are some of ours, but if you want the true story, you should go on the EMTB forums, or look at some of these videos: https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/bosch-gen-4-510-error.47213/ https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/error-74-code-on-haibike-trek-4-low.47457/ https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/giant-energypak-500-battery-self-diagnostic-test.46953/ https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/brose-s-mag-failure.47073/ https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/stupid-enough-to-buy-a-kalkoff-impulse-evo-rs.46772/ https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/bosch-ebike-won%E2%80%99t-turn-on.37843/ https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/bosch-cube-issues.36403/ Edited February 11, 20251 yr by saneagle
February 11, 20251 yr ‘The big problem is water’: UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors Repair business is booming as owners complain of their units needing to be replaced up to five times "Some mountain bike owners with fourth-generation Bosch electric motors describe how they had four or five – yes five – replacement motors fitted during the two-year warranty period. Owners of other brands say theirs have only lasted 800 to 1,000 miles." https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/article/2024/jun/15/the-big-problem-is-water-uk-ebike-owners-plagued-by-failing-motors
February 11, 20251 yr ‘The big problem is water’: UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors Repair business is booming as owners complain of their units needing to be replaced up to five times "Some mountain bike owners with fourth-generation Bosch electric motors describe how they had four or five – yes five – replacement motors fitted during the two-year warranty period. Owners of other brands say theirs have only lasted 800 to 1,000 miles." https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/article/2024/jun/15/the-big-problem-is-water-uk-ebike-owners-plagued-by-failing-motors Note that they also mentioned failed torque sensors, which is something everybody needs to know. According to the bush telegraph, if you park your bike next to your electric drill or anything with magnets in it, the sensitive torque sensor can get magnetised, then won't work. Have a search for Bosch Ebike torque sensor problems to see how many there are, mainly without solution.
February 11, 20251 yr Note that they also mentioned failed torque sensors, which is something everybody needs to know. According to the bush telegraph, if you park your bike next to your electric drill or anything with magnets in it, the sensitive torque sensor can get magnetised, then won't work. Have a search for Bosch Ebike torque sensor problems to see how many there are, mainly without solution. I think the Kclamber cassette torque sensor has resolved that. I have it on my full sus bike. There is no way that it can get wet in normal usage. Cassette Torque Sensor TORG4B-K_Kclamber Electric Technology Corp.
February 11, 20251 yr Here are some of ours, but if you want the true story, you should go on the EMTB forums, or look at some of these videos: https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/bosch-gen-4-510-error.47213/ https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/error-74-code-on-haibike-trek-4-low.47457/ https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/giant-energypak-500-battery-self-diagnostic-test.46953/ https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/brose-s-mag-failure.47073/ https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/stupid-enough-to-buy-a-kalkoff-impulse-evo-rs.46772/ https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/bosch-ebike-won%E2%80%99t-turn-on.37843/ https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/bosch-cube-issues.36403/ To save having to read all above links, here's a summary. 1st one (yamaha) battery failure replaced under warranty 2nd one Haibike battery (replaced under warranty) 3rd final cause unknown 4th 3rd party App affected the operation of motor 5th 8 year old Kalkoff motor packed up after 4k miles (everybody knows the Kalkoff Impulse motors are sh1t3) 6th Bosch Purion display failed, replaced under warranty 7th Bosch motor, never updated with final cause of issue I won't attempt to post the links of the hundreds of hub motor issue threads on the forum as a balanced comparison, they are easy to spot on here
February 11, 20251 yr I won't attempt to post the links of the hundreds of hub motor issue threads on the forum as a balanced comparison, they are easy to spot on here It's not a balanced comparison because people with problematic ebikes take them to the dealer, while as people with Amazon bikes come here to get them fixed because they don't have a dealer. Even if someone with a Bosch bike did come here, they would search through all the posts, where every one says, there's nothing you can do except take it to the dealer, so they don't bother asking.
February 11, 20251 yr The Bosch Gen 2, 3 and 4 error Code 500 now fixable! Not many people know, but there are 89 different error code 500’s. What you can’t see on your handlebar display is the last three digits e.g. 500 111. Not that this would help as Bosch don’t tell you what these mean anyway. ebike Motor Centre has teamed up with a local high-tech electronics company who had a team of engineers working with over 200 printed circuit boards, supplied by us, for over 3 weeks solid! This helped solve most of these software and hardware issues. We can currently boast a 90% success rate of repairing all code 500 errors. This means it is no longer necessary to buy a new motor when it can be repaired. For the 10% that sadly can’t be repaired, we can usually offer a service exchange motor to keep you going. he can also replace the factory seals ect in brose motors so water does not get in it https://www.ebikemotorcentre.com/brose-motor-upgrade-service/ you can shunt mod the bosch controller but the bat bms will brick its self around 21.5a so just not worth it. Edited February 11, 20251 yr by soundwave
February 12, 20251 yr There are very few if any LBS dealers who know how to fault find a bike without a diagnostic machine to plug it in to, also with hub type bikes there is a time vs cost ratio to deal with that many may find too expensive. Most hub bike faults can be found by the end user using a £10 hand held meter repairs are often simple but does require some knowledge of bike mechanics to remove some parts as well as the tools. Without hub bikes and the freely given advice of how to repair or fault find , this forum would likely not exsist . As it is the forum has turned into a mundane droll nit picking forum of mid drive is better then hub drive disagreements and is far from the interesting forum it use to be of some 15 years ago or more.
February 12, 20251 yr Asian countries are home to many of the world's 300 million electric bikes and scooters. These electric bikes and scooters are workhorses rather than a hobby or leisure purchase.
February 13, 20251 yr It's not a balanced comparison because people with problematic ebikes take them to the dealer, while as people with Amazon bikes come here to get them fixed because they don't have a dealer. Even if someone with a Bosch bike did come here, they would search through all the posts, where every one says, there's nothing you can do except take it to the dealer, so they don't bother asking. So by that rational there must have been hundreds and hundreds, possibly even thousands who joined, trawled through all the posts, found the fix there were after and left the forum without so much as posting up a single question. I know what you are saying, but you really need to drop this mid drive=bad hub=good On the EMTB forum you're referring to(Im on that one, since its inception) they have mid drive, hub and mid drive diy conversions, hub-both front and rear, but no elitism as to what type of ebike you've decided to buy
February 13, 20251 yr So by that rational there must have been hundreds and hundreds, possibly even thousands who joined, trawled through all the posts, found the fix there were after and left the forum without so much as posting up a single question. I know what you are saying, but you really need to drop this mid drive=bad hub=good On the EMTB forum you're referring to(Im on that one, since its inception) they have mid drive, hub and mid drive diy conversions, hub-both front and rear, but no elitism as to what type of ebike you've decided to buy I have two crank-drive bikes myself, one of which I use regularly, like most of the time. It's not a question of which is good and which is bad. Instead, it's a question of the right tool for your needs. I wouldn't recommend a crank-drive bike for commuting due to all the points discussed above. Sure, I joke about crank-drive bikes being shite, but in any serious discussion, or when it comes to advice, I always say what I believe to be appropriate and honest. One thing that does get me going is when people say that the cheap Chinese bikes are inadequate in some way. Properly looked after, they will give many years of reliable service at a very low cost. I have been using them myself more or less exclusively in the 14 years I've been involved with ebikes, and done somewhere around 20,000 to 30,000 miles on them. In that time, I've never been stopped by a breakdown. I've only had about three incidents in all that time: One broken gear cable, which was no problem to ride stuck in top gear and using the three chainrings to get three speed; one broken chain after a messed up gear shift next to a bike shop, so I had a new chain put on and was going again within 15 minutes; and one DIY on/off switch broke, which I fixed in two minutes by twisting the wires. There was also one rear wheel blowout that wasn't on my bike, after somebody stretched the tyre by incorrect fitting. It6 did strand me, but it wasn't my bike, and I was just testing it. The same problem could happen to any bike, when some dunderhead dealer (TETS IIRC) can't fit tyres correctly.
February 14, 20251 yr I know what you are saying, but you really need to drop this mid drive=bad hub=good As far as I'm concerned assisted cycling is a failed concept, so they are all bad. That's why despite contact with the subject through my cycling life, I didn't buy one until I was nearly 70, only to confirm I didn't really like them anyway, crank or hub motor. My best advice is to cycle on ordinary bikes for as long as possible, but when that becomes too difficult, buy a moped which will do a much better job of overcoming your shortcomings than any legal assisted bike. .
February 14, 20251 yr I have two crank-drive bikes myself, one of which I use regularly, like most of the time. It's not a question of which is good and which is bad. Instead, it's a question of the right tool for your needs. I wouldn't recommend a crank-drive bike for commuting due to all the points discussed above. Sure, I joke about crank-drive bikes being shite, but in any serious discussion, or when it comes to advice, I always say what I believe to be appropriate and honest. One thing that does get me going is when people say that the cheap Chinese bikes are inadequate in some way. Properly looked after, they will give many years of reliable service at a very low cost. I have been using them myself more or less exclusively in the 14 years I've been involved with ebikes, and done somewhere around 20,000 to 30,000 miles on them. In that time, I've never been stopped by a breakdown. I've only had about three incidents in all that time: One broken gear cable, which was no problem to ride stuck in top gear and using the three chainrings to get three speed; one broken chain after a messed up gear shift next to a bike shop, so I had a new chain put on and was going again within 15 minutes; and one DIY on/off switch broke, which I fixed in two minutes by twisting the wires. There was also one rear wheel blowout that wasn't on my bike, after somebody stretched the tyre by incorrect fitting. It6 did strand me, but it wasn't my bike, and I was just testing it. The same problem could happen to any bike, when some dunderhead dealer (TETS IIRC) can't fit tyres correctly. What would be handy to know is mileage life expectancy on various bikes. For example, your 20-30,000 miles on hub motor bikes: how many miles on a single bike is more useful to know. I remember reading, and memory might be flawed, of a requirement to replace hub motor bearings after each 4,000km! I assume that is not so for most motors? Because that would be every 8 months for me. On the mid-drive vs hub 'debate', personally I would say it might be beneficial to just tweak the tone a bit, as I can see people getting unnecessarily upset. That can't be good for forum numbers.
February 14, 20251 yr As far as I'm concerned assisted cycling is a failed concept, so they are all bad. That's why despite contact with the subject through my cycling life, I didn't buy one until I was nearly 70, only to confirm I didn't really like them anyway, crank or hub motor. My best advice is to cycle on ordinary bikes for as long as possible, but when that becomes too difficult, buy a moped which will do a much better job of overcoming your shortcomings than any legal assisted bike. . Well, I'm all for cycling and getting good exercise, but there is much to say in favour of electrification of the sort most of us here enjoy, as an assistance for older people, or for the younger person who wants to commute ten miles to work, but doesn't want to arrive in a sweat, and then have to present himself to colleagues and clients in a smart and odour free condition. There are many applications where the standard, legal e-bike is perfect. I don't understand the last paragraph where you give your advice. If you were thinking about people who want to ride at 25 miles an hour - then Yes - I'd agree, get a moped, or better still, get a 125cc or a 250cc motorbike. Vastly more long lived I'd say than the mopeds I ever had anything to do with, and not in the same universe of cost and reliability as electric mopeds or illegal e-bikes. Not to mention e-motorbike insurance not being available.
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