Moral of all this is make sure you try bike in environment you intend using it.

 

Absolutely 100% spot on! Well said sir, always try before you buy.

 

All the best, David

Just before I go.... from one of our stockists... unprompted....

 

"I have been riding electric bikes for many years but can honestly say the Wisper 705Torque is the most impressive bike I have ever ridden. The way it sailed up the steep Cornish hills on our scenic north Cornwall coast road recently was amazing. I am used to electric bike motors being quite noisy, but the 705Torque is almost silent. Its performance was also truly superb, not only did I pass many non electric bikes in the hills, but also easily overtook a couple of electric bikes! At the end of our hilly bike ride from Portreath to Hayle and back, a total of just under 20 miles, I had only used a quarter of my battery, which was amazing".

 

Just saying!

So, it's really a device for throttling the power delivery. There's probably a word for that.....

 

Choke?

.

What you are essentially discussing is efficiency. I hate to tell you this, but a correctly designed DD motor is inherently more efficient than a variable geared system.

 

The following link is a long thread on ES that tears apart the old myth of the need for gearing with an electric drive:

 

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=47930&sid=414ab6b2143d1222b0fcbcb27e9997e2

 

Yes it is but only when operating within motors ideal operating rpm range.

A car without a gearbox at a certain speed would be more efficient at its optinum speed..problem is we expect vehicles to operate over a massive speed range..hence gearbox becomes a necessary evil..

Yes its less so with electric motors but its still the case..

Take two identical so called 250w motors. Put one in a hub with a fixed ratio to back wheel. Put other in crank with facility of 10 ratios (or 20 with yam)

Are folk on here really trying to say the one with fixed ratio will prove the better solution.

Bosch and Yam have invested millions developing CD units ?? I suppose they have got it wrong ? Perhaps they should read forum ??

Just before I go.... from one of our stockists... unprompted....

 

"I have been riding electric bikes for many years but can honestly say the Wisper 705Torque is the most impressive bike I have ever ridden. The way it sailed up the steep Cornish hills on our scenic north Cornwall coast road recently was amazing. I am used to electric bike motors being quite noisy, but the 705Torque is almost silent. Its performance was also truly superb, not only did I pass many non electric bikes in the hills, but also easily overtook a couple of electric bikes! At the end of our hilly bike ride from Portreath to Hayle and back, a total of just under 20 miles, I had only used a quarter of my battery, which was amazing".

 

Just saying!

 

 

No with all due respect you are not just saying. You are advertising. Some forums do not allow it. Hardly think you are going to be objective ??

And with all due respect to other posters suspect this is an issue on forum.

How many posters on here have a vested interest in hub drives or modifying pedelecs into ilegal ones..???

Advice to any posters.

Get to a dealer who can lend you CD drives and Hub drives. Borrow both for a few days.Many authorities are currently lending out pedelecs absolutely FOC for 3 months.Borrow a few and decide for yourselves who is talking BS and who isn't..

 

Ofcourse I didn't try every hub drive..but each legal one I did was only ok..every cd bike I borrowed was brilliant. ( Impulse/Bosch/Yam were all extremely impresssive.)

Do your own research and see what you think..

Edited April 13, 201610 yr by (NoLongerRegistered#15675)

Here's one for the OP.

 

http://www.strava.com/segments/10040936

 

I know that hill in Castleton very well. Drove up and down it a few times but never cycled it. I'll give it a go later this year when i'm a bit fitter. It's slightly less steep than Cromford Hill

I know that hill in Castleton very well. Drove up and down it a few times but never cycled it. I'll give it a go later this year when i'm a bit fitter. It's slightly less steep than Cromford Hill

Kevin

I,m in Rotherham from early next week. We can meet up in Castleton sometime and do that climb together. If you wish have a go on mine to compare..

(Been around Lady Bower today, Winnats is not that far away)

Yes it is but only when operating within motors ideal operating rpm range.

A car without a gearbox at a certain speed would be more efficient at its optinum speed..problem is we expect vehicles to operate over a massive speed range..hence gearbox becomes a necessary evil..

Yes its less so with electric motors but its still the case..

Take two identical so called 250w motors. Put one in a hub with a fixed ratio to back wheel. Put other in crank with facility of 10 ratios (or 20 with yam)

Are folk on here really trying to say the one with fixed ratio will prove the better solution.

Bosch and Yam have invested millions developing CD units ?? I suppose they have got it wrong ? Perhaps they should read forum ??

The basic theory is that if you take the mass that would have been part of the extra drivetrain components and replace it with active motor mass, you will be better off.

 

It has already been stated that there is a lot of technical waffle in this thread and I am in agreement. It has moved far from its original point. The reason you were beat by the hill in your OP was due to the torque sensing control system and nothing else - when you needed the power most, you couldn't tell the motor to supply it.

Kevin

I,m in Rotherham from early next week. We can meet up in Castleton sometime and do that climb together. If you wish have a go on mine to compare..

(Been around Lady Bower today, Winnats is not that far away)

 

Thanks for the offer, I may take you up on that. I'll ask my brother to come along too. He has a Bosch CD and also couldn't get up Cromford Hill. I'll let you know.

My 2p

I own a Tonaro crank driver and a Woosh Gale hub motor( Bafang 8-fun).

In Milford Haven, I had to ride up a very steep hill on the hub motor bike.

My problem is arthritis, so I cannot pedal hard or fast.

The hub motor bike gradually slowed down on the hill and I wound the derailleur down through the gears to bottom gear.

My problem was that I could not pedal hard enough to keep the speed above about 5mph, the sweet spot of the hub motor. Below 5 mph, the motor rapidly lost power and I knew that if I had the crank driver, I would have kept going without too much effort.

In short, the hub motor is only good for medium hills when it pulls like a train.

The crank driver will seemingly go up anything.

However, I only ride on roads, in Wales, we have some really steep parts, but I am sure that off road riders would find something too steep even for the crank driver

Just put a message on here...I,ll see it.. I,ll be going around Lady Bower sometime next week a couple of times. Its a nice easy ride , welcome to join in.

The hub drive on my bike is pretty crap for hills and if the battery is down by 30 or 40% then the assistance on an incline is virtually nonexistent. Luckily i dont have many hills where i live.

I dont discount hub drive because of this though, i'm sure there are hub drives that are loads better than the one i have.

I do prefer the look of hub drives though and they just feel better to use to me than a CD.... just gonna have to get a better one for my next kit.

The basic theory is that if you take the mass that would have been part of the extra drivetrain components and replace it with active motor mass, you will be better off.

 

It has already been stated that there is a lot of technical waffle in this thread and I am in agreement. It has moved far from its original point. The reason you were beat by the hill in your OP was due to the torque sensing control system and nothing else - when you needed the power most, you couldn't tell the motor to supply it.

 

That's another way exponents of hub drives have for saying you couldn't push pedals hard enough !!!

Which is sort of why I wanted an ebike in first place. To help me press pedals down..???

That's another way exponents of hub drives have for saying you couldn't push pedals hard enough !!!

Which is sort of why I wanted an ebike in first place. To help me press pedals down..???

Umm, not sure what the point you thought you were making there? Torque sensors are in no way unique to mid-drives.

Edited April 13, 201610 yr by danielrlee

Umm, what was the point you thought you were making there? Torque sensors are in no way unique to mid-drives.

 

No never !!!

Point is if hub drive/ pressure pedal relationship is so high ie.needing more force than rider can supply when tired there is a fault somewhere..it totally negates point of ebike..if you can exert high torque at end of a ride you don't need an ebike do you !!

Hmm wife on hub drive and me on crank drive. Well there are some very steep hills in Bristol and both bikes got up. Efficiency with the two speed hub drives that Daveh talks about and a max assistance speed of 25 kph the efficient zones will cover 3-25 Kph. Just like a crank will.

Some people use the wrong gears and make the engines run inefficiently.

Some might try to hard at the start of the season and then tire before the day is out.

And some like to eat popcorn and watch the fight

No never !!!

Point is if hub drive/ pressure pedal relationship is so high ie.needing more force than rider can supply when tired there is a fault somewhere..it totally negates point of ebike..if you can exert high torque at end of a ride you don't need an ebike do you !!

Exactly what you describe is the achilies heel of the torque sensor. It is not a fault though, just a feature by design.

I know that hill in Castleton very well. Drove up and down it a few times but never cycled it. I'll give it a go later this year when i'm a bit fitter. It's slightly less steep than Cromford Hill

 

Not true, but I'll let you off. Winnats is a whole 300 feet more of climbing, and even with the more gentle gradients at the top and bottom included in my segment it has an average grade of 11% compared to Cromford at 9%. A whole different league really.

 

Winnats http://www.strava.com/segments/10040936 there's a big error in this particular profile.

 

Cromford https://www.strava.com/segments/1494228?filter=overall

 

ETA Just made a new segment for the steepest part (although the new mapping doesn't allow for much accuracy on the start and end points.

http://www.strava.com/segments/11810750?filter=overall

Edited April 13, 201610 yr by Artstu

Take two identical so called 250w motors. Put one in a hub with a fixed ratio to back wheel.

 

The most gears an electric motor could sensibly make use of over a legal pedelec speed range of 5 to 15 mph is two.

 

d8veh rightly suggested the Xionda as one of the hub motors that can compete. You may have missed the significance that it's an automatic change two speed hub motor.

.

My problem was that I could not pedal hard enough to keep the speed above about 5mph, the sweet spot of the hub motor. Below 5 mph, the motor rapidly lost power and I knew that if I had the crank driver, I would have kept going without too much effort.

In short, the hub motor is only good for medium hills when it pulls like a train.

That problem only relates to the hub-motor on a specific bike. If you had a hub-motor with more torque at 5 mph of which there's many, it wouldn't slow down and stall out.

 

I can turn your argument right around by saying that I tried a kalkhoff with 26v CD up a steep hill. It completely stalled out, leaving me to push it. Next, I tried a bike with a hub-motor up the same hill, and it sailed up with little effort.

 

another example: I just converted a Bromptom with a tiny 200w Q85 motor. It could drag my 100 kg up a 14% hill without pedalling. The guy that has it now complains that the front wheel has so much torque that it loses traction going up very steep hills.

 

Some bikes and motors are better at some things than others, but you can't make a general conclusion by testing an unrepresentative sample.

 

I've done lots of tests with wattmeters and side-by-side comparisons. That data tells me that crank drives are not more efficient, and it also shows me that crank-motors don't climb hills better than hub-motors.

 

Finally, when did a crank-drive ever win the Bristol World Championships hill climb? I'll tell you. Never! It was won each time by a bike with a 250w hub-motor, last time by a guy that had hardly ridden a bike. I rest my case.

Hmm wife on hub drive and me on crank drive. Well there are some very steep hills in Bristol and both bikes got up. Efficiency with the two speed hub drives that Daveh talks about and a max assistance speed of 25 kph the efficient zones will cover 3-25 Kph. Just like a crank will.

Some people use the wrong gears and make the engines run inefficiently.

Some might try to hard at the start of the season and then tire before the day is out.

And some like to eat popcorn and watch the fight

That's a fair point and well expressed. I cant comment because I haven,t tried a two speed hub and I,d guess you are correct ( or somebody is) with a bike speed of 3 to 25 kmh and two ratios available it should be possible to keep motor in its efficient range .

Perhaps this point should have been pointed out to original poster.??

Which bikes are fitted with 2 speed hub drives ? Only ones I,ve tried are single....

Having said that the higher ratio ( well actually lower) will have to still cope with higher speeds than 25 kmh ( especially if soubdwave has it) for non powered descents ? Unless it also freewheels.??

CD drives have at least 8 ratios and upto 20. ( my haibike can be fitted with double chain ring)

But fair point. I will try and ride one.

Which bikes are fitted with 2 speed hub drives ? Only ones I,ve tried are single.....

 

There are two, one from Xionda, the other from SRAM. They don't need any higher ratio than their second internal motor gear gives, since the rider still has their derailleur for fast downhills at over the 15 mph assist limit.

 

But that's just one approach for having a hub motor for steep hills.

 

The other way is from Bafang with the BPM and CST motors, Ezee with their hub motor and Panasonic with their rear hub motor. That is to have much higher power and torque than the run of the mill Bafangs. They are excellent hill climbers, climbing at higher speeds due to their greater ability, so making the climb shorter as already mentioned. The shorter climb time largely balances the higher consumption so the range is still reasonable. Having long experience of both CD and hub motors, I've settled on Ezee bikes for my hilly area, fine for both hill climbing and trailer pulling.

 

It's relevant that Panasonic have been making bikes for over half a century and were making e-bikes over a decade before Bosch. With far greater knowledge of the subject than Bosch, they still regard it worthwhile making both CD units and front and rear hub motors.

 

No experienced company in this field has yet settled on one type as the right answer for powering e-bikes, hence both being made by more than one maker.

.

Not true, but I'll let you off. Winnats is a whole 300 feet more of climbing, and even with the more gentle gradients at the top and bottom included in my segment it has an average grade of 11% compared to Cromford at 9%. A whole different league really.

 

Winnats http://www.strava.com/segments/10040936 there's a big error in this particular profile.

 

Cromford https://www.strava.com/segments/1494228?filter=overall

 

ETA Just made a new segment for the steepest part (although the new mapping doesn't allow for much accuracy on the start and end points.

http://www.strava.com/segments/11810750?filter=overall

 

OK. Im not so sure now, looks a bit daunting and narrow towards the top. Maybe wait until i'm a bit fitter.

OK. Im not so sure now, looks a bit daunting and narrow towards the top. Maybe wait until i'm a bit fitter.

 

It could prove an interesting hill for some retailers or owners out there to show just how good their bikes can climb hills. My experience of other e-bikes is extremely limited, although I do know my bike is not considered to be a good hill climber, so my time up there should be very easy to beat, especially on bikes that will climb gradients like that with no rider input.

 

Skip to 8 minutes in

Edited April 13, 201610 yr by Artstu

Y

That problem only relates to the hub-motor on a specific bike. If you had a hub-motor with more torque at 5 mph of which there's many, it wouldn't slow down and stall out.

 

I can turn your argument right around by saying that I tried a kalkhoff with 26v CD up a steep hill. It completely stalled out, leaving me to push it. Next, I tried a bike with a hub-motor up the same hill, and it sailed up with little effort.

 

another example: I just converted a Bromptom with a tiny 200w Q85 motor. It could drag my 100 kg up a 14% hill without pedalling. The guy that has it now complains that the front wheel has so much torque that it loses traction going up very steep hills.

 

Some bikes and motors are better at some things than others, but you can't make a general conclusion by testing an unrepresentative sample.

 

I've done lots of tests with wattmeters and side-by-side comparisons. That data tells me that crank drives are not more efficient, and it also shows me that crank-motors don't climb hills better than hub-motors.

 

Finally, when did a crank-drive ever win the Bristol World Championships hill climb? I'll tell you. Never! It was won each time by a bike with a 250w hub-motor, last time by a guy that had hardly ridden a bike. I rest my case.

You can not quote climbing one hill as an example of a particular bike being a good climber.

Yes no doubt over a fairly short duration ( Bristol hill climb is 2 miles) and bike going at its optimum speed and a fair chance that 250w motor churning out treble that a hub motor would win.( or be capable of winning)

But that has nothing at all to do with what OP did and what most recreational riders do.

They go out for 3 hours riding or so. Over that time a CD unit will be running in its perfect zone wether you are going hell for leather up a long shallow gradient or twiddling granny ring at 3 mph up some really steep climb, probably knackered.

How can anyone argue sensibly that a bike with no gears for motor can compete with one with at least

8 over an entire spectrum of speeds us beyond me. Yes if hill happens to suit ratio within hub ( and you) well great. But as we tire over the day cd gives chance to gear down and still keep motor in its perfect rpm range.

 

Send the bloke who won Bristol Hill climb around Derbyshire for 30 miles then get him to race up the hill and see wether he beats CD bike that's followed him all afternoon.

I said ages ago, yes a hub drive would get me half way up pico neulous twice as quick...but I want to get to top..ok slowly...but it gets there..

A race up one or two hills ( short ones at that) is not the true measure of a bikes ( and riders) climbing ability..

Out all day, climbing hundreds and hundreds of feet,over a distance of 30 miles or more on a 400wh battery any cd ( Bosch/ Yam/ Impulse) would beat any hub drive made.?????

How many times have you ever heard any rider say they had failed a hill on CD ??

I,ve ridden hub drives you could barely recognise as being powered, yes probably poor ones. Yet to ride a disappointing CD bike...

 

I,m heading for Winnats ASAP...I might be ordering a hub drive ??? We,ll see.

Edited April 13, 201610 yr by (NoLongerRegistered#15675)