Just put a Deliveroo/JustEat/Ubereats cube backpack on your back and bomb up and down Exeter city centre, you'll be fine, no-one will stop you

Go to CAB and TS as obviously the bike is selling illegal bikes that they should be warning or telling potential buyers about. This sort of shoddy selling needs stamping on as so many do not know the pitfalls or what an illegal bike looks like.

Just had a groupon email promoting this;

 

https://www.groupon.co.uk/deals/tucano-monster-26-electric-bike?

 

A 500W ebike from a Spanish importer being sold into the UK so that is two countries not bothered about wattage restrictions etc.

 

You may ask why I'm on the groupon mailing list. Well I like their restaurant offers. Recently managed to get some Harvester vouchers which meant a 3 course steak meal was only £9 and it was lovely and really enjoyed it at the two locations I used.

 

However this ebike looks appalling value at Groupon.

Just put a Deliveroo/JustEat/Ubereats cube backpack on your back and bomb up and down Exeter city centre, you'll be fine, no-one will stop you

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anCY1F4_WT8:177

This site is obviously giving false information to potential buyers.

1: The bikes are only legal for off road use where there is no public access. In other words ones own private estate or where the land owner has given permission. They don't state this.

2:They state that you don't need a licence or insurance. Not true, you would need both, also the machine would have to be registered for it to be legal and you would have to wear a motorcyle helmet.

3: They say that the speed can be restricted for road use. This may be true but would make the direct drive motor extremely inefficient reducing range and overall battery life. A technicality but also not mentioned.

4: They say the power can be restricted for road use. The rated power of the motor is the important thing here. It is rated at 1500w. The maximum continuous rating of a road legal motor is 250w. This is determined at manufacture and cannot be altered, so also false information.

Surely all this information is enough to prove an intention to mislead you, and others, into unknowingly breaking the law . Caveat Emptor not withstanding you have been lead astray deliberately by a dodgy trader.

It matters not if that bike is retricted to 250w & 25km/h , it is illegal and requires registration and all the other legalities to go with it as a moped class .

Yep, definitely illegal as far as pedelecs are concerned.

I had a similar argument a few years ago about a log burner bought for a barge. (it too was illegal)

Citizens Advice were brilliant. They got in touch with a lawyer they worked with who wrote a letter to mentioned company. They gave a full refund.

 

I didn't know a log burner needed to be legal, or pass requirements?

 

I didn't know a log burner needed to be legal, or pass requirements?

 

 

In January 2022, new rules came into force that meant all new wood-burning stoves, multi-fuel stoves and fireplaces manufactured would need to meet new guidelines called 'Ecodesign. ' The government also issued a ban on the burning of wet wood and house coal and urged households to switch to cleaner alternatives.

 

However, under the government's new Environmental Improvement Plan 2023, announced by environment secretary Therese Coffey on 31 January, burners in designated “Smoke Control Areas” – most towns and cities – will now only be allowed to emit 3 grams (g) of smoke per hour, down from 5g, as part of a bid to reduce air pollution.

.

In January 2022, new rules came into force that meant all new wood-burning stoves, multi-fuel stoves and fireplaces manufactured would need to meet new guidelines called 'Ecodesign. ' The government also issued a ban on the burning of wet wood and house coal and urged households to switch to cleaner alternatives.

 

However, under the government's new Environmental Improvement Plan 2023, announced by environment secretary Therese Coffey on 31 January, burners in designated “Smoke Control Areas” – most towns and cities – will now only be allowed to emit 3 grams (g) of smoke per hour, down from 5g, as part of a bid to reduce air pollution.

.

 

We have a stove in the kitchen and an open fire in the front room.

Both were in place when we bought the house 20 years ago.

 

Must take a closer look at this.

We have a stove in the kitchen and an open fire in the front room.

Both were in place when we bought the house 20 years ago.

 

Must take a closer look at this.

 

You probably enjoy what is called "Grandfather Rights", meaning that existing equipment remains legal.

 

The principle being that laws cannot be retrospective, back dated, since that would infer criminality before the new law even existed.

 

For example, although the law now bans fully acting throttles on pedelecs, all those bought before 1st January 2016 with such a throttle can keep it indefinitely.

.

Edited February 28, 20233 yr by flecc

You probably enjoy what is called "Grandfather Rights", meaning that existing equipment remains legal.

 

The principle being that laws cannot be retrospective, back dated, since that would infer criminality before the new law even existed.

 

For example, although the law now bans fully acting throttles on pedelecs, all those bought before 1st January 2016 with such a throttle can keep it indefinitely.

.

 

From what I've learnt from this site and elsewhere. You can have twist and go throttles on type approved bikes, fully acting throttles on ebike kits and as long as electronically linked to pedalling have full control by throttle on pre-built ebikes. So its not just pre 2016 ebikes that are limited to having throttles. There are lots of ways to have a throttle based legal ebike. It's still annoying and restrictive for those who want to buy a pre-built twist and go throttle ebike that they have to go through the type approval procedure when throttle ebikes are the norm for most people in the world though.

From what I've learnt from this site and elsewhere. You can have twist and go throttles on type approved bikes, fully acting throttles on ebike kits and as long as electronically linked to pedalling have full control by throttle on pre-built ebikes. So its not just pre 2016 ebikes that are limited to having throttles. There are lots of ways to have a throttle based legal ebike. It's still annoying and restrictive for those who want to buy a pre-built twist and go throttle ebike that they have to go through the type approval procedure when throttle ebikes are the norm for most people in the world though.

 

It's even more complicated than that:

 

Firstly a type approved pedelec doesn't exist, in law being type approved means it becomes a moped everywhere the EU type law exists, including here in Britain. The only difference here is that the DfT has arrange for the police forces to ignore the law and treat type approved machines as pedelecs, providing they conform to all pedelec conditions other than power only when pedalling.

 

Secondly kits don't exist in law since the pedelec law only applies to complete manufactured machines. Since every type of motorised vehicle has to have a specific approval to be on the road, private kit conversions are technically illegal. In common with some other powered bicycle aspects they have become a "blind eye" subject throughout the EU, ignored so long as they comply to the rules for manufactured pedelecs. When they have fully acting throttles they are not compliant of course.

 

A throttle electronically linked to pedalling is not a fully acting throttle, fully acting means the throttle can be used at any time without pedalling.

 

So as I posted, only pre 2016 pedelecs can have a fully acting throttle and legally remain compliant pedelecs.

.

It's even more complicated than that:

 

Firstly a type approved pedelec doesn't exist, in law being type approved means it becomes a moped everywhere the EU type law exists, including here in Britain. The only difference here is that the DfT has arrange for the police forces to ignore the law and treat type approved machines as pedelecs, providing they conform to all pedelec conditions other than power only when pedalling.

 

Secondly kits don't exist in law since the pedelec law only applies to complete manufactured machines. Since every type of motorised vehicle has to have a specific approval to be on the road, private kit conversions are technically illegal. In common with some other powered bicycle aspects they have become a "blind eye" subject throughout the EU, ignored so long as they comply to the rules for manufactured pedelecs. When they have fully acting throttles they are not compliant of course.

 

A throttle electronically linked to pedalling is not a fully acting throttle, fully acting means the throttle can be used at any time without pedalling.

 

So as I posted, only pre 2016 pedelecs can have a fully acting throttle and legally remain compliant pedelecs.

.

 

So what is your interpretation of this;

 

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cycles-converted-twist-go-exempt-type-approval/

 

Also I would disagree about being a fully acting throttle as you can set it to ghost pedal quite legally so make no effort yourself. I was watching this video earlier and Atlanta is clearly ghost pedalling with a full range throttle which is clearly a moped style ebike which anyone can do I guess by setting a low gear which is slower than the hub motor speed and therefore cannot assist the motor and is just pedalling to activate the motor. Apart from moving your legs without resistance it is a legal twist and go throttle ebike as long as it only assists to 15.5mph and the wattage can be considered 250W.

 

 

So are you saying the Wisper type approved ebikes are actually illegal and the police are turning a blind eye to them. I'd be interested in Wisper's viewpoint on this. Surely the type approval process is completely legal even if limited to use in the UK. The majority of people in the UK have zero interest in the laws elsewhere in Europe because they don't use their ebike in mainland Europe. It's a minor restriction not to be able to use such ebikes in mainland Europe that will effect only a very small amount of people. However there are loads of twist and go ebikes available across Europe again the awful EU ebike laws are pretty much ignored by a huge number of countries. Sometimes laws are so abysmal and unenforceable they just become a bit of a joke and are ignored. However I totally accept that if you want to follow the letter of the law you cannot use such ebikes in mainland Europe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlxZs2-gICc:280

So what is your interpretation of this;

 

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cycles-converted-twist-go-exempt-type-approval/

 

Also I would disagree about being a fully acting throttle as you can set it to ghost pedal quite legally so make no effort yourself. I was watching this video earlier and Atlanta is clearly ghost pedalling with a full range throttle which is clearly a moped style ebike which anyone can do I guess by setting a low gear which is slower than the hub motor speed and therefore cannot assist the motor and is just pedalling to activate the motor. Apart from moving your legs without resistance it is a legal twist and go throttle ebike as long as it only assists to 15.5mph and the wattage can be considered 250W.

 

 

So are you saying the Wisper type approved ebikes are actually illegal and the police are turning a blind eye to them. I'd be interested in Wisper's viewpoint on this. Surely the type approval process is completely legal even if limited to use in the UK. The majority of people in the UK have zero interest in the laws elsewhere in Europe because they don't use their ebike in mainland Europe. It's a minor restriction not to be able to use such ebikes in mainland Europe that will effect only a very small amount of people. However there are loads of twist and go ebikes available across Europe again the awful EU ebike laws are pretty much ignored by a huge number of countries. Sometimes laws are so abysmal and unenforceable they just become a bit of a joke and are ignored. However I totally accept that if you want to follow the letter of the law you cannot use such ebikes in mainland Europe.

 

Hi BB,

 

For the avoidance of any doubt:

 

Wisper full throttle bikes that have been tested by the DVSA and Type Approved as an L1e electric bike in the 250W Low Powered Moped category are perfectly legal to use in the UK.

 

All the best, David

So what is your interpretation of this;

 

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cycles-converted-twist-go-exempt-type-approval/

 

Also I would disagree about being a fully acting throttle as you can set it to ghost pedal quite legally so make no effort yourself. I was watching this video earlier and Atlanta is clearly ghost pedalling with a full range throttle which is clearly a moped style ebike which anyone can do I guess by setting a low gear which is slower than the hub motor speed and therefore cannot assist the motor and is just pedalling to activate the motor. Apart from moving your legs without resistance it is a legal twist and go throttle ebike as long as it only assists to 15.5mph and the wattage can be considered 250W.

 

 

So are you saying the Wisper type approved ebikes are actually illegal and the police are turning a blind eye to them. I'd be interested in Wisper's viewpoint on this. Surely the type approval process is completely legal even if limited to use in the UK. The majority of people in the UK have zero interest in the laws elsewhere in Europe because they don't use their ebike in mainland Europe. It's a minor restriction not to be able to use such ebikes in mainland Europe that will effect only a very small amount of people. However there are loads of twist and go ebikes available across Europe again the awful EU ebike laws are pretty much ignored by a huge number of countries. Sometimes laws are so abysmal and unenforceable they just become a bit of a joke and are ignored. However I totally accept that if you want to follow the letter of the law you cannot use such ebikes in mainland Europe.

 

It's a brave and foolhardy man who contradicts me on this subject.

 

First ghost pedalling is still pedalling having to be done, so not in not way a contradiction what I posted. Member Stumpy with one artificial leg can find ghost pedalling difficult at times for example.

 

Now to deal with throttles. The pedelec law remains entirely unchanged, fully acting throttles are always illegal on bureaucracy free pedelecs.

 

I've no wish to upset my good friend David Miall of Wisper, but the machines he has been selling entirely legally with throttle for prosecution free use in Great Britain are in fact are individually Single Vehicle Approved, not Type Approved. The law being used which still remains fully in force here and in the EU specifies Type Approval, a different thing since that can only apply to manufactured complete pedelecs. Of course David's company Wisper as a manufacturer could type approve initially, but that makes them motor vehicles in law.

 

In fact 250 LPM is a Ministerial Permission to ignore the existing law, the only way to get round the EU rules when we were still in the EU and still even now since we've kept that law in force for trading reasons. Here's a fuller explanation of all the wrinkles that I've previously posted:

 

"The stumbling block here is the difference between Type Approval and Single Vehicle approval.

 

Under EU pedelec law, also now UK law as ruled by the Great Repeal Bill, bureacracy free pedelecs are only permitted on the roads if power ceases when pedalling stops. That allows them, via an exemption (h) in the type approval legislation, to be not considered as motor vehicles.

 

If power does not cease when pedalling stops, they are motor vehicles with all that implies, including that they have to be Type Approved AS MOTOR VEHICLES.

 

But type approval only applies for manufactured complete machines. Any individual machine not type approved or which is assembled in some way can get a Single Vehicle Approval to be used on the roads. However, nowhere in any of the regulations is there an exemption for Single Vehicle Approval pedelecs to remain pedelecs, so a strict interpretation is that they are not allowed on the roads as bicycles, even if all the other provisions for a pedelec including power cutting out when pedalling stops are met. i.e. All kit bikes are illegal.

 

A less strict interpretation is that, in the spirit of the law, Single Vehicle Approval is the same as having type approval. However, that in turn means the pedelec will still be a motor vehicle in law if power doesn't cut when pedalling stops.

 

The DfT have taken that less strict interpretation and extended it by saying they will consider single approved pedelecs with full throttles to be not motor vehicles but bicycles. However, therein lies the impasse. The looser interpretation they have assumed also insists that such machines are motor vehicles since it says Single Vehicle is the same as Type Approval, so any pedelec with fully acting throttle remains a motor vehicle with no exemption in law. It cannot be both subject to Type Approval yet also be exempted from type approval law.

 

So the provision being used is only a Ministerial order permitting an illegal use, a form of local allowance only. Indeed when applying for a single vehicle approval the Guidance Notes title says as much:

 

GUIDANCE NOTES FOR COMPLETING AN APPLICATION FOR A MINISTER’S APPROVAL CERTIFICATE (MSVA 1)

 

It is similar to the Ministerial Order that Paul Boateng made as Home Secretary when he gave permission for cyclists to use the pavement when in genuine fear of the traffic on certain occasions. That is still illegal, merely exempt from prosecution if fulfilling the Minister's conditions."

 

So there's no need for anyone with a 250 LPM mac hine to worry, they will definitely not be prosecuted for using a full throttle, even though the law still does not allow one.

.

Edited March 2, 20233 yr by flecc

It's a brave and foolhardy man who contradicts me on this subject.

 

First ghost pedalling is still pedalling having to be done, so not in not way a contradiction what I posted. Member Stumpy with one artificial leg can find ghost pedalling difficult at times for example.

 

Now to deal with throttles. The pedelec law remains entirely unchanged, fully acting throttles are always illegal on bureaucracy free pedelecs.

 

I've no wish to upset my good friend David Miall of Wisper, but the machines he has been selling entirely legally with throttle for prosecution free use in Great Britain are in fact are individually Single Vehicle Approved, not Type Approved. The law being used which still remains fully in force here and in the EU specifies Type Approval, a different thing since that can only apply to manufactured complete pedelecs. Of course David's company Wisper as a manufacturer could type approve initially, but that makes them motor vehicles in law.

 

In fact 250 LPM is a Ministerial Permission to ignore the existing law, the only way to get round the EU rules when we were still in the EU and still even now since we've kept that law in force for trading reasons. Here's a fuller explanation of all the wrinkles that I've previously posted:

 

"The stumbling block here is the difference between Type Approval and Single Vehicle approval.

 

Under EU pedelec law, also now UK law as ruled by the Great Repeal Bill, bureacracy free pedelecs are only permitted on the roads if power ceases when pedalling stops. That allows them, via an exemption (h) in the type approval legislation, to be not considered as motor vehicles.

 

If power does not cease when pedalling stops, they are motor vehicles with all that implies, including that they have to be Type Approved AS MOTOR VEHICLES.

 

But type approval only applies for manufactured complete machines. Any individual machine not type approved or which is assembled in some way can get a Single Vehicle Approval to be used on the roads. However, nowhere in any of the regulations is there an exemption for Single Vehicle Approval pedelecs to remain pedelecs, so a strict interpretation is that they are not allowed on the roads as bicycles, even if all the other provisions for a pedelec including power cutting out when pedalling stops are met. i.e. All kit bikes are illegal.

 

A less strict interpretation is that, in the spirit of the law, Single Vehicle Approval is the same as having type approval. However, that in turn means the pedelec will still be a motor vehicle in law if power doesn't cut when pedalling stops.

 

The DfT have taken that less strict interpretation and extended it by saying they will consider single approved pedelecs with full throttles to be not motor vehicles but bicycles. However, therein lies the impasse. The looser interpretation they have assumed also insists that such machines are motor vehicles since it says Single Vehicle is the same as Type Approval, so any pedelec with fully acting throttle remains a motor vehicle with no exemption in law.

 

So the provision you are using is only a Ministerial order permitting an illegal use, a form of local allowance only. Indeed when applying for a single vehicle approval the Guidance Notes title says as much:

 

GUIDANCE NOTES FOR COMPLETING AN APPLICATION FOR A MINISTER’S APPROVAL CERTIFICATE (MSVA 1)

 

It is similar to the Ministerial Order that Paul Boateng made as Home Secretary when he gave permission for cyclists to use the pavement when in genuine fear of the traffic on certain occasions. That is still illegal, merely exempt from prosecution if fulfilling the Minister's conditions."

 

So there's no need for anyone with a 250 LPM mac hine to worry, they will definitely not be prosecuted for using a full throttle, even though the law still does not allow one.

.

 

Hiya Flecc, I promise you haven’t upset me at all and of course you are correct… as always! :0)

 

Our full throttle bikes are in deed individually Single Vehicle Approved, not Type Approved, my error.

 

All the best David

Also I would disagree about being a fully acting throttle as you can set it to ghost pedal quite legally so make no effort yourself.

 

Surely it requires some effort to move the pedals ?

 

OK, so its a very small effort, but thats not the same as no effort.

So there's no need for anyone with a 250 LPM machine to worry, they will definitely not be prosecuted for using a full throttle, even though the law still does not allow one.

A neat summing up for all of us.

Hiya Flecc, I promise you haven’t upset me at all and of course you are correct… as always! :0)

 

Our full throttle bikes are in deed individually Single Vehicle Approved, not Type Approved, my error.

 

All the best David

 

Thanks David. I've added this footnote to my post:

 

"So there's no need for anyone with a 250 LPM machine to worry, they will definitely not be prosecuted for using a full throttle, even though the law still does not allow one."

 

Just as no London taxi driver was ever prosecuted for not having the bale of hay in his boot for his non-existent horse that the law required until recently !

.

Surely it requires some effort to move the pedals ?

 

OK, so its a very small effort, but thats not the same as no effort.

 

Obviously it requires a small amount of effort but 100% of propelling the vehicle is using the motor not the cyclist and it becomes a bit of a farce to get around extremely poor legislation.

Obviously it requires a small amount of effort but 100% of propelling the vehicle is using the motor not the cyclist and it becomes a bit of a farce to get around extremely poor legislation.

 

 

This is where I have to disagree with the latter part of your sentence since I believe the EU law is excellent with only one minor fault. However I totally agree that it is a farce to provide a throttle for motor only operation on a 250 watt rated machine, since they cannot possibly have sufficient hill climbing ability for anywhere near enough normal roads.

 

It becomes an even bigger farce since in EU law there is the L1e-A class (LPM) which does the job so much better since they are basically a 15.5 mph pedelec with throttle that have up to 1000 watts rating to do the job much better for those who cannot pedal at times.

 

The trouble here is Britain once again messing up perfectly good EU law by requiring a driving licence registration etc for L1e-A. Pop over to France and a 14 year old can ride one without a licence.

.

Edited March 2, 20233 yr by flecc

Obviously it requires a small amount of effort but 100% of propelling the vehicle is using the motor not the cyclist and it becomes a bit of a farce to get around extremely poor legislation.

 

Perhaps the rules could or maybe should be changed to rule out ghost pedaling, but until they are ...............................

I had a similar argument a few years ago about a log burner bought for a barge. (it too was illegal)

I thought these type of stoves we the norm on barges. A big old (120yr) sailing boat i used to sail on had an old fashioned cast iron stove for burning coal, wood etc. First time ive heard theres a law concerning them.

 

Why did they say it was illegal ?. Fumes or such.

I thought these type of stoves we the norm on barges. A big old (120yr) sailing boat i used to sail on had an old fashioned cast iron stove for burning coal, wood etc. First time ive heard theres a law concerning them.

 

Why did they say it was illegal ?. Fumes or such.

For quite a while now any equipment used on any boats must meet minimum standards, and be certified as such. (with clear marking on equipment and relevant paper work.) This is both the case for new boats (definetely barges) and for any boat to pass mandatory boat safety inspections. (regs cover stuff like gas storage, fridges, cookers, electrical devices and stoves)

Individual builders (with relevant training) can self certify (or could when I was involved) certain requirements. (eg placement of gas cupboards) but items such as wood burning stoves must have past testing and be stamped accordingly.(I, d guess CO2 emissions)

Stove in question had no markings. (at time CE marks), and would have failed boat inspection.(was a new one but by letter of law irrelevant)

If anyone is using any stove on British waterways without markings, it should fail boat inspection. Boat examiners might turn a blind eye on older boats but certainly not on new ones, but I doubt it. Imagine some owner expiring through CO2 poisoning a week or so after boat safety test?? Somebody would go to prison.

One of jobs I often had to do when involved with refitting old barges was remove some dangerous, often a home made excuse for a wood burner. Rules around barges, boats are equally as strict as for housing, in fact probably more so and rightly so.

Edited March 3, 20233 yr by Zlatan