You can't beat the simplicity of a TS crank drive, so that should be the TSDZ8 or TSDZ2B TURBO instead of BBS02B

Good parts individually but it's said that long term an Alfine hub won't stand up to the torque of a BBS02, not many hubs will. It's much discussed on the web and my Nexus Premium 8 died at 4k along with its second Impulse motor in effect costing 5p/mile. Mustn't grumble, the motor cost £1.60/m, I could have driven a Tesla...

Will it have a thumb throttle as the Gran Camino?

Will it have a thumb throttle as the Gran Camino?

Yes. The thottle is limited to 4mph just for hill start.

Under certain circumstance, it can be reprogrammed to go up to 15mph.

Yes. The thottle is limited to 4mph just for hill start.

Under certain circumstance, it can be reprogrammed to go up to 15mph.

That's excellent news. My current Cube Kat has excellent torque on hills with 85Nm but when my dodgy ticker and hip kicks in 15 miles from home i miss the assistance of

the thumb throttle of the Gran Camino. How does the torque compare to 85Nm?

I certainly will be watching this thread closely.

The Ananda M100 max torque is 120NM.

The Ananda M100 max torque is 120NM.

Perfect, I will start saving now

Yes. The thottle is limited to 4mph just for hill start.

Under certain circumstance, it can be reprogrammed to go up to 15mph.

 

Why did I have to read to post 104 to learn that? It should have been right at the top! I will not buy an e-bike without a throttle. Up to 4mph is fine for the very important business of safe (and elegant) launching, and easier low speed manoeuvring. A mid-motor e-bike with throttle has very strong sales appeal, but is an extremely rare beast on this side of the water.

 

Shame it’s not a step-thu though. With two bionic hips I can’t ride a high-step, let alone with a child on the back or a basket of groceries, and I usually have one or the other. Who can? Wisper it is then.

Shame it’s not a step-thu though.

good point. I don't know when we would make a step through with the Ananda motor. The Santana3 with Bafang SWX02 rear hub motor works so well over the years, there is little incentive to change.

Edited November 30, 20232 yr by Woosh

good point. I don't know when we would make a step through with the Ananda motor. The Santana3 with Bafang SWX02 rear hub motor works so well over the years, there is little incentive to change.

Any plans to do a 48v version - the Santana 4 !? - not sure how much extra cost that is for the motor + battery

 

Super impressed with my 48V Bafang SWX02 / G020 on my old carrera (especially with the Woosh Torque Sensor kit). I (100kg+) even managed to get up a local hill that has a short section that is 28% incline - that I can't manage on my 36v XF08C. That is with winding code 12 on a 26 inch wheel.

 

Edited November 30, 20232 yr by Peter.Bridge

Any plans to do a 48v version - the Santana 4 !? - not sure how much extra cost that is for the motor + battery

upgrade to hydraulic brakes + Ananda motor : will increase target price about £125. The plus about the Santana3 is most users can replace any part themselves. all the bike parts, controller, wiring, sensors, motors, battery are all conventional. They are simply superior parts put together well. You can replace them with more or less any other brand. In the past, I did make one offs with 48V DWG22C and TS bottom bracket. I actually made the BBTS kit to fit the Santana3 so I could make the TS Santana4 with DWG22C + BBTS + 48V 15AH rack battery for the same cost.

Edited November 30, 20232 yr by Woosh

upgrade to hydraulic brakes + Ananda motor : will increase target price about £125. The plus about the Santana3 is most users can replace any part themselves. all the bike parts, controller, wiring, sensors, motors, battery are all conventional. They are simply superior parts and put together well. You can replace them with more or less any other brand. In the past, I did make one offs with 48V DWG22C and TS bottom bracket.

 

Yes - I was thinking 48V SWX02 rather than Ananda motor

 

eta

I actually made the BBTS kit to fit the Santana3 so I could make the TS Santana4 with DWG22C + BBTS + 48V 15AH rack battery for the same cost.

Ah - that would do it - lack of throttle might put off some people but you don't need a throttle with that TS kit - just push the pedal and the motor kicks in

Edited November 30, 20232 yr by Peter.Bridge

 

snip

… you don't need a throttle with that TS kit - just push the pedal and the motor kicks in

 

But how do you ‘just push the pedal’ when your feet are on the ground?! That is the whole point of a throttle at low speed.

 

There is a school of thought among some purists who claim a torque sensor is somehow better and more ‘natural’ but there is nothing natural about a human being riding a bicycle in the first place. So a torque sensor may be more familiar, but if you have not ridden a bike for years or even decades, it’s hardly familiar either.

 

These newcomers and returnees, mums with young kids and those of a certain age, need all the help they can get launching and manoeuvring safely with a heavy e-bike. These folks have nothing in common with the traditional enthusiasts’ mindset that wilfully ignors a big new market opportunity.

 

And what is a torque sensor anyway? It’s just a throttle operated by your legs, and permanently tied to the pedals. It simply cannot compare to the ease and simplicity of a hand-operated throttle.

Bafang charge so much premium for their kits that I just can't do it.

 

How much of a premium? Would it be worth it for reliability, or are those newfangled "M" things not as reliable as the BBBSXX(X) series? (Guerney pauses nervously for the hub crowd, avoids eye contact)

But how do you ‘just push the pedal’ when your feet are on the ground?! That is the whole point of a throttle at low speed.

 

There is a school of thought among some purists who claim a torque sensor is somehow better and more ‘natural’ but there is nothing natural about a human being riding a bicycle in the first place. So a torque sensor may be more familiar, but if you have not ridden a bike for years or even decades, it’s hardly familiar either.

 

These newcomers and returnees, mums with young kids and those of a certain age, need all the help they can get launching and manoeuvring safely with a heavy e-bike. These folks have nothing in common with the traditional enthusiasts’ mindset that wilfully ignors a big new market opportunity.

 

And what is a torque sensor anyway? It’s just a throttle operated by your legs, and permanently tied to the pedals. It simply cannot compare to the ease and simplicity of a hand-operated throttle.

Fair point - I was a bit absolute - I had a cadence sensor bike with a throttle and I used the throttle often at junctions to set off and found it really useful. Now I changed the bike to use a torque sensor and at junctions I have one foot on the ground, push the pedal on the other side and the motor kicks in and i take off ! I don't feel I need a throttle anymore. I agree the "natural" argument is a not a good way of characterising it - but it is intuitive - you apply force to the pedals, you get assistance, if you aren't applying force (eg ghost pedalling) - you don't (which means I don't think you need brake sensors too)

 

I think this is where a rear hub has an advantage over a crank drive - it doesn't matter what gear you are in when you set off

there is nothing natural about a human being riding a bicycle in the first place.

 

It's totally unnatural for me to get any exercise whatsoever when riding my ebike - exercise is the last thing I want from my bicycle, and why I got an ebike.

 

 

But how do you ‘just push the pedal’ when your feet are on the ground?! That is the whole point of a throttle at low speed.

 

There is a minimum of pedal force you need to be able to exert with the cadence sensored Bafang BBS01B, to start off with, but once the PAS kicks in, the assistance can be very rapid if you set firmware parameters using the programming cable - I've got used to not having a throttle, and don't miss it much. My bike has 20" wheels, your experience may vary with larger wheels. The trick is to always stop on a low gear.

Edited November 30, 20232 yr by guerney

- I've got used to not having a throttle, and don't miss it much. The trick is to always stop on a low gear.

 

Yep, me too. I ride my ebike like I ride a normal bike, change down as I approach a junction so I'm ready for a quick pull away. PAS kicks in almost immediately anyway.

 

I find all this chat about people needing throttles a bit puzzling.

 

I ordered my conversion kit without a throttle, then out of curiosity I ordered a throttle and a 2-1 cable from Topbikekit. I tried it, but found no real benefit and I soon removed it. I kept the cable fitted though (and blanked off the throttle connector) because it is much shorter than the 1-1 cable that came with the kit.

I find all this chat about people needing throttles a bit puzzling.

An independent throttle gives many benefits with no downside at all, apart from the legal aspects. Even with a modern compliant bike, the throttle is extremely useful for starting on hills and giving an instant power boost when you need it, like roundabouts , some traffic situations and short hills. Again, there's no downside to having one. Sure, you can do without it, but your argument of it being puzzling why people needing one is the same as non-electric bike users finding it puzzling that people need a motor on their bike.

 

On some bikes (maybe yours), the throttle is linked to the PAS level, so it doesn't give any advantage. You need one that works independently to 4 mph and thereafter dependent on pedalling, but always giving max power when you ask for it. That's if you can't have a fully-independent one.

We'd be far safer being able to throttle around roundabouts at higher speed.

 

Starting after a sudden stop on the highest gears on the flat can be troublesome, but usually standing on the pedals gets me going enough to gear down... if not, I dismount if necessary, kick the kickstand down, tilt the bike to one side and change to lower gear - I do the same for hill starts, after an unanticipated stop.

Edited November 30, 20232 yr by guerney

An independent throttle gives many benefits with no downside at all, apart from the legal aspects. Even with a modern compliant bike, the throttle is extremely useful for starting on hills and giving an instant power boost when you need it, like roundabouts , some traffic situations and short hills. Again, there's no downside to having one. Sure, you can do without it, but your argument of it being puzzling why people needing one is the same as non-electric bike users finding it puzzling that people need a motor on their bike.

 

On some bikes (maybe yours), the throttle is linked to the PAS level, so it doesn't give any advantage. You need one that works independently to 4 mph and thereafter dependent on pedalling, but always giving max power when you ask for it. That's if you can't have a fully-independent one.

 

 

OK, good points but I am lucky in that I don't really struggle with hill starts etc. I realise that is not the case for everyone due to medical conditions etc.

 

You said no downsides at all, but

 

1.One needs brake sensors if one has a throttle, so more to go wrong, also I like to keep my bike as clutter free as possible.

 

2. Possibility of throttle becoming jammed in the on position (hence brake sensors needed).

 

3. (Some) throttles are not legal. I realise that the chances of getting stopped by Mr. Plod while riding sensibly are close to zero but there was an item in my local paper a while back where some disgusting chav had his death trap 1500w ebike seized and the police seemed to be more annoyed about the fact the bike had a throttle than anything else (like non-functioning brakes for just one example).

 

No doubt you'll destroy my case with your massive brain of super-knowledge

1.One needs brake sensors if one has a throttle, so more to go wrong, also I like to keep my bike as clutter free as possible.

 

Are you saying you don't have brake sensors? I've got vbrakes, and really don't think it'd be safe fighting my PAS with those. Besides, brake pads aren't cheap, or as cheap as I'd like them to be - I've been getting through them at a rate of knots since converting.

I don't use brake kill switches simply because I use KT controllers and no thumb throttle , other contollers and their programming may differ to how much over run the PAS has so brake kill switches may be deemed necessary.

If I utilised a thumb throttle then I would use a kill switch as in the past I have exp throttle failure so know how important a kill switch is.

other contollers and their programming may differ to how much over run the PAS has so brake kill switches may be deemed necessary.

 

It'd be suicide for me, especially now I've increased the controller limit from 15A to 18A, there's even more torque, and particularly for technical bits offroad - which thankfully for me is extremely rare - when I need the capability of rapid cesssation of motor power to stop my overshooting and falling off things. Two ebrakes also come in handy negotiating tightly packed rush hour traffic.

Edited November 30, 20232 yr by guerney

Are you saying you don't have brake sensors?

 

Woosh said I didn't need brake cut-outs if I chose to not have a throttle.

 

One assumes they know what they are talking about.

No doubt you'll destroy my case with your massive brain of super-knowledge

Let's see what my massive brain can do:

1. I have a throttle, but no brake sensors. My bike has been like that since 2014, and I'm still happy without them.

2. It's true that full-width throttles are easy to brake, but thumb throttles are pretty robust and well protected. Even if you did break one. Most bikes have an off-switch these days, which you can operate, while you take 10 seconds to disconnect the throttle or cut the wires before switching back on.

3. No throttles are illegal and it's not illegal to have one on your bike. Any laws relate to the way you use them. With the right controller (KT), you can get just about everything you need from the throttle completely legally. When the police find those illegally operated 1500w bikes with independent throttles, it's easier to prove the illegal use of the throttle than the motor being rated above 1500w unless it has a 1500w label on it. You can't go by size because the legal direct drive motors are about the same size as the illegal ones, while as if they press the throttle and the motor spins up to 30 mph, it's a slam dunk.