My collegue comes from many years experience in the motor trade (a bit of culture change when you move to the bicycle industry) and I do not agree that people should have to wait months for parts. If we truly want to deliver a step change by getting more people on their bike on a daily basis then this needs to change. If we accept the current situation things will never change.

 

For example we have been waiting nearly 2 months for a Nexus 7 hub. We did not expect the customer to wait so when the bike came in we switched the wheels off another new bike. If we had not done this the customer would still be waiting.

 

The best company we have dealt with for service is Reise and Muller, we had a problem with a NuVinci hub and were sent a new wheel in little over a week. That is what I call service.

 

For example we have been waiting nearly 2 months for a Nexus 7 hub. We did not expect the customer to wait so when the bike came in we switched the wheels off another new bike. If we had not done this the customer would still be waiting.

 

Madison who look after Shimano are one of the best companies in the cycle industry and Shimano is the biggest brand in cycling.

 

They normally sort issues out very quickly. They are certainly excepted as the bench mark others in the cycle industry are aiming for.

 

Its very unusual that you've been made to wait.

 

But also in practice, swapping out the hub to keep the customer riding is what Shimano would expect you to do as a dealer. Its that sort of service they are essentially paying you to offer. If you don't offer service like this there is no need for you in the supply chain. They might as well sell direct.

 

I don't work for Madison, so I can't comment on that case, but certainly everything we've ever done with them has been amazing service. Its one of the reasons we're so happy that pretty much all KTMs are shimano equipped.

have you had a specific problem in the past, that we can perhaps discuss? or is your concern hypothetical?

 

I've been working in the bike industry for 20 years in a variety of roles and whilst I can see the frustrations with some parts of it, it has evolved to be the way it is for a number of reasons. The main frustration is the time it takes to get replacement parts from some suppliers, and this wouldn't change if you dealt with your dealer or the component brand direct.

I have had a warranty issue with the Bosch motor, having bought from LBS. LBS were out of their depth and couldn't get any support from the manufacturers. In the end problem was sorted by Martin at my expense, but more of a gesture of good will from him.I raised the issue with the bike manufacturer (Scott) who became involved assuring me this situation wont arise in the future. At this point LBS is still selling e bikes and have had to resort to stripping a spare Bosch motor to see how it works because they cant, or dont seem able to get any help from Bosch. But with regard to the BB, Probable because I use mine in dusty and muddy conditions, normal BB's only last about a year, so the question about the repair with or without warranty is of interest.

I have had a warranty issue with the Bosch motor, having bought from LBS. LBS were out of their depth and couldn't get any support from the manufacturers. In the end problem was sorted by Martin at my expense, but more of a gesture of good will from him.I raised the issue with the bike manufacturer (Scott) who became involved assuring me this situation wont arise in the future.

 

& herein lies a problem. I did help out Phill. Shortly after I became inundated with calls from other LBSs who wanted advice & also some who expected me to fix their warranty problems! In fact Scott actually told their dealer base to contact me for any warranty issues arising with Scott eBikes. I told Scott to support their customers if they are to be selling Bosch eBikes, not just pass the buck, in responsive I was told that my time would be paid for... Not the point.

 

Whilst it goes against my nature I had to quickly get tougher unless my workshop guys would be spending all their time fixing other dealer's warranty claims. The risk is that my own customers might suffer, something I am not prepared to happen.

 

I made the decision when I started selling e-bikes to invest my own money & time in getting the proper training, equipment & employing suitably qualified staff in order to give a proper service to my customers, not operate as a drop in centre or phone support service to other LBS's & their customers!

 

Addressing a point above, occasionally we can claim for labour from the manufacturers however it's rarely worthwhile & rather than have the bike sitting there waiting for a repairs authorisation I prefer to get my customer's bike fixed & get them back on the road as soon as possible.

 

Regards

Martin

& herein lies a problem. I did help out Phill. Shortly after I became inundated with calls from other LBSs who wanted advice & also some who expected me to fix their warranty problems!

 

Whilst it goes against my nature I had to quickly get tougher unless my workshop guys would be spending all their time fixing other dealer's warranty claims. The risk is that my own customers might suffer, something I am not prepared to happen.

 

I made the decision when I started selling e-bikes to invest my own money & time in getting the proper training, equipment & employing suitably qualified staff in order to give a proper service to my customers, not operate as a drop in centre or phone support service to other LBS's & their customers!

 

Addressing a point above, occasionally we can claim for labour from the manufacturers however it's rarely worthwhile & rather than have the bike sitting there waiting for a repairs authorisation I prefer to get my customer's bike fixed & get them back on the road as soon as possible.

 

Regards

Martin

And although my issues with Lbs have been resolved, any future purchase will be on line from Martin's bike shop.

And although my issues with Lbs have been resolved, any future purchase will be on line from Martin's bike shop.

Exactly the reason I concentrate my time / service on our existing client base.

 

Thanks Phill

Col the point I was making is I do not believe we or any other dealer shoud have to do this. Waiting 4 months is not acceptable (apparently they will have the hub in September). Essentially four months when we are not able to sell the bike.

 

Also agree very much with Martin.

My collegue comes from many years experience in the motor trade (a bit of culture change when you move to the bicycle industry)

 

For example we have been waiting nearly 2 months for a Nexus 7 hub.

 

Being ex-motor industry I know only too well the difference, but a factor in that very large scale market is that spares are an extremely significant part of the income of both the manufacturers and the dealers. Build a car from the spares and it will cost at least four or five times the list price of the car! With profits like that of course they make sure the spares are there to sell.

 

The delay you mention above is commonplace with very large manufacturers who program their production to match orders placed in advance, as Shimano do. They program in a needs-forecast proportion for spares, but if they are used at a higher rate than expectation, the delays happen. Trying to re-program for such unexpected occurrences in very large organisations can be like trying to quickly turn a supertanker.

.

Col the point I was making is I do not believe we or any other dealer shoud have to do this. Waiting 4 months is not acceptable (apparently they will have the hub in September). Essentially four months when we are not able to sell the bike.

 

Also agree very much with Martin.

 

There is a responsibility right though out the supply chain to hold stock. But its impossible for everyone at every stage in the supply chain to have every product in stock in every size and colour at all times. So there will always be delays, or massively increased costs for everyone. I sympathise with your problem with this hub, but I would suggest that you've done what a good dealer should do and keep your customer on road. This will mean your customer is happy and recommends you and your business will grow as a result. As a dealer investing in stock and having a demo bike or two that you can lend to customers should a supplier be out of stock of a part is a great selling tool and as Martin is finding a good business model.

 

and now in a shock move for the world of internet forums, I'm actually going to go back to the first post, and provide some answers.

 

The bottom bracket on my Bosch motor has developed a lot of play on the drive side. Are these user or dealer serviceable? or is the only option available having to send it back to Bosch for repair?

 

I understand that a bottom bracket on a normal bicycle is not covered by a warranty, worn bearings are not considered to be a fault, just normal serviceable parts. I'm concerned that wear in the bottom bracket of the Bosch could also lead to damage occurring to other parts in the housing.

 

Has anyone any experience of changing the bottom bracket bearings on a Bosch motor?

 

First point from Bosch. If you use a dongle or in any way tune your motor you immediately invalidate your warranty. They have stated this very clearly to us in an email today, and highlighted it on their website.

 

http://www.bosch-ebike.de/en/company/faq_company/faq.html

 

Secondly Bosch do state that the drive unit can't be dissembled, so in a case like this its a straight replacement of the whole drive thats needed.

 

Hope that clears up the initial questions on this thread.

There is a responsibility right though out the supply chain to hold stock. But its impossible for everyone at every stage in the supply chain to have every product in stock in every size and colour at all times. So there will always be delays, or massively increased costs for everyone. I sympathise with your problem with this hub, but I would suggest that you've done what a good dealer should do and keep your customer on road. This will mean your customer is happy and recommends you and your business will grow as a result. As a dealer investing in stock and having a demo bike or two that you can lend to customers should a supplier be out of stock of a part is a great selling tool and as Martin is finding a good business model.

 

and now in a shock move for the world of internet forums, I'm actually going to go back to the first post, and provide some answers.

 

 

 

First point from Bosch. If you use a dongle or in any way tune your motor you immediately invalidate your warranty. They have stated this very clearly to us in an email today, and highlighted it on their website.

 

http://www.bosch-ebike.de/en/company/faq_company/faq.html

 

Secondly Bosch do state that the drive unit can't be dissembled, so in a case like this its a straight replacement of the whole drive thats needed.

 

Hope that clears up the initial questions on this thread.

Expensive for a bb failure if out of warranty....

pehaps Col could ask his dealers how many would arrange repairs if a bike is out of warranty etc? I can actually appreciate why dealers would not want to do this based on issues to do with poor communication, lack of spares, lead-time to simply processing a fault prior to possible resolution and the excess time for relevant parts to simply be manufactured. I dread to think what the responses by these manufacturers would be if the part was out of warranty... Ignore or drop down the queue big time I suppose. Also the added complication of simply getting a quote from them for fixing.. Now that would add more delay and confusion I would imagine....? I can appreciate Col saying how such things should not complicate matters but from experience it is nigh on impossible for dealers to get things done at a reasonable pace due to these manufacturers' present system of support. the KTM bikes are advertised as being fantastic, as is the warranty, but really the warranty is with a multitude of companies and KTM don't really care it seems when it comes to the crunch. up to the dealers. up to the manufaturers. BUT such poor support for dealers to resolve issues will only lead to KTMs brand being associated with comoanies who do not have parts in stock, do not even deal with request for over a fortnight or simply so difficult to get in touch with? I am not going to get into the particulars on my KTM issues (we would be here for weeks) but it has to be said that I am of the view that the support given to dealers by these parts manufacturers is pretty low and feel that KTM should be more involved and held accountable for their failures rather than pass the buck to either dealers or manufacturers. It seems as if KTM don't care if their bikes fail or parts for them take weeks or months? It may be unfair that KTM is taking all this flack (sorry Col) but I am going from my experience and there are no other Bosch type bike makers on forum that ai am aware of?

Being ex-motor industry I know only too well the difference, but a factor in that very large scale market is that spares are an extremely significant part of the income of both the manufacturers and the dealers. Build a car from the spares and it will cost at least four or five times the list price of the car! With profits like that of course they make sure the spares are there to sell.

 

The delay you mention above is commonplace with very large manufacturers who program their production to match orders placed in advance, as Shimano do. They program in a needs-forecast proportion for spares, but if they are used at a higher rate than expectation, the delays happen. Trying to re-program for such unexpected occurrences in very large organisations can be like trying to quickly turn a supertanker.

.

 

I find it unlikely Shimano's production is so finely tuned that every Nexus hub is committed for months in advance.

 

There simply must be a spare in stock somewhere in the supply chain.

 

So why is the customer forced to rely on the goodwill of the retailer to cannibalise a stock bike?

 

It must be because Shimano/Madison see warranty work as a costly nuisance and therefore give it no priority.

The Bosch website links to leadtime for parts usually being 2-3 days (Col's link) but this is from cloud cuckoo land in my experience. A spare calssic motor took 4 weeks .. Or was it 6 actually?

pehaps Col could ask his dealers how many would arrange repairs if a bike is out of warranty etc?

 

all of them do. I'm really not sure why you have this image of bike shops wanting to turn away work from? Can you give me an example of what you're concerned about. Shops often turn away customers, but its usually the customer thats the reason, not the bike.

 

I can actually appreciate why dealers would not want to do this based on issues to do with poor communication, lack of spares, lead-time to simply processing a fault prior to possible resolution and the excess time for relevant parts to simply be manufactured. I dread to think what the responses by these manufacturers would be if the part was out of warranty... Ignore or drop down the queue big time I suppose.

 

for most companies, that I've experience of the warranty stock is separate to the normal stock, so you generally get things quicker when they don't have to go though the warranty process.

 

but really the warranty is with a multitude of companies and KTM don't really care it seems when it comes to the crunch. up to the dealers.

 

in reality, your warranty is with one company - your dealer. Its then us who support them. And in some cases brands have dedicated service centres who support the dealers. But for there is one contact and thats your dealer.

 

do not even deal with request for over a fortnight or simply so difficult to get in touch with?

 

we're not difficult to get hold of. The office number is always open, and if its engaged it forward to a selection of mobiles so no one ever should have to leave a message. We reply to emails as fast as possible. So I'm afraid this simply isn't true. There might be delays getting parts out, but thats due to supply chain issues that any brand can suffer from.

 

This is 100% the reason why we don't deal with the public and why you won't find many brands sticking their head above the wall to discuss things.

 

There is lots in there that is not correct, but its not worth me picking holes in things because it'll just undermine your relationship with the dealer who has as I understand it been helping you out massively.

The Bosch website links to leadtime for parts usually being 2-3 days (Col's link) but this is from cloud cuckoo land in my experience. A spare calssic motor took 4 weeks .. Or was it 6 actually?

 

Thats what Bosch aim for to ship a part, but thats not the time it takes to sort out a warranty.

 

I know nothing about your individual case, but if there was a delay sorting a new motor, that will be the time it took to sort out the problem. That could have been because they didn't have motors in stock, or any number of other things that went on.

Being ex-motor industry I know only too well the difference, but a factor in that very large scale market is that spares are an extremely significant part of the income of both the manufacturers and the dealers. Build a car from the spares and it will cost at least four or five times the list price of the car! With profits like that of course they make sure the spares are there to sell.

 

The delay you mention above is commonplace with very large manufacturers who program their production to match orders placed in advance, as Shimano do. They program in a needs-forecast proportion for spares, but if they are used at a higher rate than expectation, the delays happen. Trying to re-program for such unexpected occurrences in very large organisations can be like trying to quickly turn a supertanker.

.

 

Your correct of course but it does not make it right. I still believe things need to change if we want cycling for all. I also believe it is possible not to be in a situation of waiting 3 or 4 months.

Thats what Bosch aim for to ship a part, but thats not the time it takes to sort out a warranty.

 

I know nothing about your individual case, but if there was a delay sorting a new motor, that will be the time it took to sort out the problem. That could have been because they didn't have motors in stock, or any number of other things that went on.

 

Not forgetting the general shortage of Bosch motors which, unhappily for Wissy, may have coincided with her need for one.

It was a shortage of motors which was the problem.

I find it unlikely Shimano's production is so finely tuned that every Nexus hub is committed for months in advance.

 

There simply must be a spare in stock somewhere in the supply chain.

 

So why is the customer forced to rely on the goodwill of the retailer to cannibalise a stock bike?

 

It must be because Shimano/Madison see warranty work as a costly nuisance and therefore give it no priority.

 

Shimano and other large companies could solve the problem if they invested the money and time. I am concerned that people would be put off especially if another dealer was not quite so forthcoming.

Perhaps Col misunderstood me. I cannot possibly express my satisfaction with electrifying cycles in Words eloquent enough (unless in Welsh ). They have been, and continue to be amazing, flexible, helpful beyound what is expected of a dealer. The relationship there is exeptional ther and in no way was I implying there was an issue with the dealer. the issue is the time it takes for dealers to get the support they need and the parts they need through no fault of their own. i just feel for them to be honest.

And the communication issue are not KTM Col but the manufacturers eg SRAM.

Should we not be asking why these bearings are failing so often. My Nephew has an expensive road bike with two BB replacements in 6 Months. Shop says he is abusing these !! How precisely can a rider abuse a BB bearing by riding the thing ? He has been using my 40 year old road bike meantime with it's old ball bearing BB still in perfect condition. Are these cartridge things inherently faulty or cheaply made down to a price. What is wrong with good old well tried adjustable ball bearings anyway, £3 and 20 mins to replace.

Shimano and other large companies could solve the problem if they invested the money and time. I am concerned that people would be put off especially if another dealer was not quite so forthcoming.

 

You will know better than I, but this attitude to service has been ingrained in the bike industry for many years.

 

When bikes were simpler, retailers could paper over the cracks.

 

That's harder to do with ebikes.

 

Improvements in customer service elsewhere makes the cycle industry appear even more backward.

You will know better than I, but this attitude to service has been ingrained in the bike industry for many years.

 

When bikes were simpler, retailers could paper over the cracks.

 

That's harder to do with ebikes.

 

Improvements in customer service elsewhere makes the cycle industry appear even more backward.

 

Right, and remember the car and motorcycle industries came out of the bicycle trade. I have no idea what policies the Humber bicycle company had in regard to warranty issues. But whatever they were they had to modernise them when they became a car company selling to a mass market.

Rob you are correct but unless we all put pressure on nothing will ever change. What I found astounding is people simply accept this perhaps from apathy. Too many excuses rather than a solution focused attitude i.e. how can we solve this problem and ensure it is not repeated. Nobody is perfect but with effort the problems could be resolved. Change is definitely needed!