Yes in your case at that price point I'd also go the DIY route. You'll end up with a much better bike.

yes, I have a kalkhoff as well, one thing about a less expensive bike is that it may be less worrying to own.

yes, I have a kalkhoff as well, one thing about a less expensive bike is that it may be less worrying to own.

if one builds it oneself I think..

I did not realise that in doing that for me it would have cost you money. Given that the only other option would have been to send my wheel to M&P I'd have been prepared to pay the shipping costs. So thank you again for helping me in that instance.

 

no problem at all, its part of what we're trying to do to help people. In all honestly we should have foreseen the problems with M&P and not sold them bikes in the first place. They have been nothing but trouble, and its lesson we learnt very on in our dealing with KTM. That mistake won't be repeated.

 

Don't confuse protracted debates that you have engaged with on here, with actually dealing with my claim. Tom is the only person I've had official contact with, just three or four emails.

 

No thats cool. I fully appreciate that I've put our brands head above the wall by coming on here, so as part of that, I'll try to respond to any KTM based discussions, or even ones where a brands viewpoint might help people understand things.

 

Now you could just have sent my Bosch motor back to Bosch at what you've just said is probably no cost to yourself. I'd have dropped it off with you, if you'd asked I'd have even boxed it for you. So that would have been one initial reply to my first email, one to confirm when I could drop it off, then one more to tell me when to collect.

 

Yes, but if Bosch had collected it, plugged it into their diagnostics they could problem have identified that it had been tuned, so they would have just sent it back and billed us for shipping both ways, or possibly just binned it - which could quickly add up to a LOT of money for euroshipping of dangerous goods. So we had to check a few things first, for your benefit and now with the creation of this thread - a lot of peoples benefit. So whilst I've been at EuroBike we've all been trying to see if you really did need a new drive, or if the old drive could be taken apart and the bearing replaced. So we were working on getting you a super cheap price on a drive and also finding out if the bearing could be simply replaced.

 

We discovered that the bearing could be replaced, and I believe you discovered this at about the same time, we're just now working together to source you one of the bearings.

 

My problem would have been resolved quickly and efficiently and I'd have been singing the praises of KTM again and busy racking up another 4,000 miles on my KTM bike.

 

This thread wouldn't be here, along with all the negative KTM PR. What with the liability thread and this one KTM and e-bikes in general have started to leave a very sour taste in my mouth, the fun of e-bikes has all but been sucked out for me. I shall probably return to normal cycling, where I'll be able to cruise along at 20 to 30 mph without a worry.

 

I can appreciate why you might think this... but I promise you my discussion about liability could well have highlighted something to even just one person meaning they take out personal liabilty insurance - so could save them thousands and thousands of pounds. I think at least a few people learnt something, so there was a point to it and promoting KTM wasn't the point. I've learnt a lot about the type of companies that currently sell S Class bikes and dongles So it served two purposes.

 

To be honest the statement above actually pleases me. I'd hate to have heard about you being involved in an accident on your illegally assisted eBike, and if you're fit an able enough now to use a normal bike for leisure pursuits now thats great news, and I'm glad the eBike has helped you get to that point.

o

no problem at all, its part of what we're trying to do to help people. In all honestly we should have foreseen the problems with M&P and not sold them bikes in the first place. They have been nothing but trouble, and its lesson we learnt very on in our dealing with KTM. That mistake won't be repeated.

 

 

 

No thats cool. I fully appreciate that I've put our brands head above the wall by coming on here, so as part of that, I'll try to respond to any KTM based discussions, or even ones where a brands viewpoint might help people understand things.

 

 

 

Yes, but if Bosch had collected it, plugged it into their diagnostics they could problem have identified that it had been tuned, so they would have just sent it back and billed us for shipping both ways, or possibly just binned it - which could quickly add up to a LOT of money for euroshipping of dangerous goods. So we had to check a few things first, for your benefit and now with the creation of this thread - a lot of peoples benefit. So whilst I've been at EuroBike we've all been trying to see if you really did need a new drive, or if the old drive could be taken apart and the bearing replaced. So we were working on getting you a super cheap price on a drive and also finding out if the bearing could be simply replaced.

 

We discovered that the bearing could be replaced, and I believe you discovered this at about the same time, we're just now working together to source you one of the bearings.

 

 

 

I can appreciate why you might think this... but I promise you my discussion about liability could well have highlighted something to even just one person meaning they take out personal liabilty insurance - so could save them thousands and thousands of pounds. I think at least a few people learnt something, so there was a point to it and promoting KTM wasn't the point. I've learnt a lot about the type of companies that currently sell S Class bikes and dongles So it served two purposes.

 

To be honest the statement above actually pleases me. I'd hate to have heard about you being involved in an accident on your illegally assisted eBike, and if you're fit an able enough now to use a normal bike for leisure pursuits now thats great news, and I'm glad the eBike has helped you get to that point.

building ones own bike might also mean not having to read loads of spin...

o

 

building ones own bike might also mean not having to read loads of spin...

 

now I'm going to take issue at that because I hate spin.

 

so here are the facts behind the statement so you can see its not spin.

 

M&P Cycles used to be a HUGE bike shop in the 90s, I remember because I used to buy from them for my mountain bike. They sold the cycle shop part of their business and it became Tredz / Wheelies. M&P just focused on motorbikes. In 2011/12 time there was a big fire and M&P lost everything, and had to start again. The owner was I think looking to get back into cycling so approached us about being a KTM dealer. His logic was that as the motorbike customers already came to his destination store, KTM would be a good brand of bike for them to look at. So he ordered 20 bikes to stock out the KTM part of his new bike shop. 6 months later his bike shop "idea" had gone out the window as he's got a Harley dealership. We think he was trying to wind up another KTM dealer so rather than let us collect the bike, he insisted on putting them on eBay and selling them at pretty much a loss.

 

And if you build your own bike, its still a sum of components which have to be sourced from somewhere, so exactly the same as a bike - you'll just have loads of suppliers - not just one, so potentially more trouble. Unless you plan on manufacturing all the components yourself!

derf is buying a BPM2 kit from bmsbattery.com - his future problem is warranty and support rather than spin because there isn't any.

surely on an eBike the one thing you do want is a bit of spin

now I'm going to take issue at that because I hate spin.

 

so here are the facts behind the statement so you can see its not spin.

 

M&P Cycles used to be a HUGE bike shop in the 90s, I remember because I used to buy from them for my mountain bike. They sold the cycle shop part of their business and it became Tredz / Wheelies. M&P just focused on motorbikes. In 2011/12 time there was a big fire and M&P lost everything, and had to start again. The owner was I think looking to get back into cycling so approached us about being a KTM dealer. His logic was that as the motorbike customers already came to his destination store, KTM would be a good brand of bike for them to look at. So he ordered 20 bikes to stock out the KTM part of his new bike shop. 6 months later his bike shop "idea" had gone out the window as he's got a Harley dealership. We think he was trying to wind up another KTM dealer so rather than let us collect the bike, he insisted on putting them on eBay and selling them at pretty much a loss.

 

And if you build your own bike, its still a sum of components which have to be sourced from somewhere, so exactly the same as a bike - you'll just have loads of suppliers - not just one, so potentially more trouble. Unless you plan on manufacturing all the components yourself!

but one is sourcing the compoonents oneself, from the point of view of owning it (not making profit), so not the cheapest possible crap (that seem to occupy trex's consciousness so much, i wonder why..), but a decent basic bike with something like a bpm2 (at half the cost of . it doesnt take too much to establish the quality of something like a bafang bpm. frankly, though, the joy of not having to take part in this kinf of parading trumps it all..

what is it about? I am all for building your own bike. You get the best of the technology to suit your needs, you know your bike inside out and it's cheaper than buying ready made. The only difference between my view and other members' like d8veh is the motor technology. I think crank drives like the 8Fun BBS01 18A 350W are way better than the BPMs.

I hope the conclusion is not: worn bottom bracket on a Bosch bike = new motor.

 

Bottom brackets wear out on all bikes, so it ought to be a reasonably easy part to replace.

I have not followed this entire thread but would assume that Bosch do not warrant consumables.

 

Bottom brackets are and always have been classed as consumables. All bearings have a finite life and bottom brackets do get hammered.

 

My Haibike clocked 5000 miles yesterday. No signs of bearing play as yet.

 

As and when the play arrives, and it will, I would expect any Bosch dealer to hold these parts in stock. After all that is what the dealers are there for.

 

What I need is someone to publish a Haynes manual type of book along with associated parts list and numbers. I can then see what I have purchased.

 

My bike is used amongst other things for daily commuting. To leave it for days at a dealer is no use to me. If I can quickly repair myself, this would be my option.

Bottom brackets are and always have been classed as consumables. All bearings have a finite life and bottom brackets do get hammered.

 

The doesn't necessarily apply when the bottom bracket is a part of an integrated motor unit though, the BB then is often a complex multi part assembly since the chainwheels and cranks have to operate independently on such units. These are not constrained by standard frame shell sizes so there's no excuse to design for inadequate life.

 

The Panasonic unit warranty for example is two years for the entire unit. They are a major bicycle manufacturer too so may well follow convention on the normal bikes, but clearly not the same on the crank drive unit.

.

Edited September 6, 201411 yr by flecc

I have not followed this entire thread but would assume that Bosch do not warrant consumables.

 

Bottom brackets are and always have been classed as consumables. All bearings have a finite life and bottom brackets do get hammered.

 

There's a two year warranty on unmodified Bosch units. A bearing failure is covered, because the unit isn't serviceable, Bosch do not supply any internal parts.

 

My bike is used amongst other things for daily commuting. To leave it for days at a dealer is no use to me. If I can quickly repair myself, this would be my option.

 

Return to Bosch I'm lead to believe can be around 4 weeks,

the norm seems that warranty does not cover wear and tear.

 

The bottom bracket spindle is not faulty, the motor casing is not faulty, the ball bearings are worn due to mileage.

 

sample T&Cs, extract from:

http://www.shop.flidistribution.co.uk/k/policies#9

2. The warranties do not apply to any defect in the goods arising from fair wear and tear, willful damage, accident, negligence by you or any third party, use otherwise than in accordance with its intended use, failure to follow the manufacturer's or Shopatron Supplier's instructions, or any alteration or repair carried out without the Shopatron Supplier's prior written approval.

A Bosch motor is an exception to that, and would be covered by warranty if unmodified.

you have to return the unit to a Bosch service centre but they may make a charge for replacing the bearings though.

you have to return the unit to a Bosch service centre but they may make a charge for replacing the bearings though.

 

I didn't know that. I wonder what the cost is anyone?

correction:

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/bosch-crank-drive-whining-help-please.16701/

 

it seems that the situation may be more common than I imagine.

A few members think Bosch will replace the motor FOC.

The doesn't necessarily apply when the bottom bracket is a part of an integrated motor unit though, the BB then is often a complex multi part assembly since the chainwheels and cranks have to operate independently on such units. These are not constrained by standard frame shell sizes so there's no excuse to design for inadequate life.

.

The question might then be, what is the design life? Surely it must be 10's of thousands of miles?

There's a two year warranty on unmodified Bosch units. A bearing failure is covered, because the unit isn't serviceable, Bosch do not supply any internal parts.

 

 

 

Return to Bosch I'm lead to believe can be around 4 weeks,

 

Bosch are not playing the game here. Who wants to wait 4 weeks for a bearing replacement.

 

It might be acceptable if you are using the bike for weekend fun but not for a daily commuter. It says to me that Bosch think that these bikes are purchased for toys.

 

My camper is a German conversion, I would expect to have it repaired in the UK should the need arise.

 

Surely that is what the UK dealers have been trained for.

The question might then be, what is the design life? Surely it must be 10's of thousands of miles?

 

4,000 miles in my case. the new Bosch motor has a bearing twice the size of the one that has worn out in my motor.

Surely that is what the UK dealers have been trained for.

 

You need to think yourselves lucky. The BH has got to go back to Spain to be repaired as BH UK aren't competent enough to do it! Impressed I'm not.

 

Not for the first time, I am without use of the bike, and I'm sure that it will be far from the last time as well.

I need to have a sell up and replace it pretty smartish.

Edited September 7, 201411 yr by EddiePJ

The question might then be, what is the design life? Surely it must be 10's of thousands of miles?

 

 

It certainly should be. Panasonic have got their integral BB bearings right from the outset, they never fail and are still in use on units up to 12 years old.

 

From what Arstu says, Bosch have greatly increased the bearing size to correct the problem. In my view that's an admission of a design error so those that fail should be replaced totally free of charge.

.

Eddie, I bet you wish you could turn back the clock regarding your decision to go with BH.

I think its about time they returned your money.

 

Flecc, I hope Arstu's experience stems from some Friday afternoon bearing production and not a design error.

Lets not think about their decision to increase bearing size on the later version.

Lets not think about their decision to increase bearing size on the later version.

 

Brushing it under the carpet and burying your head in the sand isn't helping me though.

Here's the one that has worn out

http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/i/61810-2rs1-skf.jpg

 

The new motor may have these fitted

http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/i/drtac.jpg

 

However it's actually the bearing on the other end of the shaft that is proving difficult to source.

Brushing it under the carpet and burying your head in the sand isn't helping me though.

Here's the one that has worn out

http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/i/61810-2rs1-skf.jpg

 

The new motor may have these fitted

http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/i/drtac.jpg

 

However it's actually the bearing on the other end of the shaft that is proving difficult to source.

 

but has the one you're struggling to find actually worn out or are you just replacing it whilst the drive is apart?