A major factor in dealers in any trade refusing to undertake warranty repairs on items not bought from them is quite simply resentment, not of the customers choice to go somewhere else but of the internet sales that so severely damage their business.

 

Their costs mean they just cannot compete with internet sales and this is the only way they can express their frustration, by saying, "You buy online and you'll have to get the internet supplier to do the repair!"

 

My sense of fairness means I have a certain sympathy with that view.

.

For a purchase of high value I always pay more to buy from a reputable dealer. It is oh so much easier to discuss problems face to face.

This is always a tricky problem, at FWG we try and promote the use of a local stockist, one who will look after you and your bike. If you buy a bike from a retailer at the other end of the country it is difficult to persuade a local stockist to become involved in sorting out a problem. There are of course exceptions and some long range retailers offer excellent service.

 

If a stockist were to go bust it is the duty of the manufacturer to resolve any issues.

 

The problem we have experienced with Bosch have been due to the fact that we all have to use Magura in Germany to resolve issues. I was recently with a stockist in London who when trying to get a Bosch issue resolved was told to call back in an hour when an English speaker would be available, this coupled with having to pay for components by bank transfer makes things quite awkward. However I understand that a UK agent is soon to be named which should make things better.

 

We understand that an electric bike is often a sole means of transport, so on all FreeGo and new Wispers we give the following promise. If a FreeGo or Wisper fails in it's first year and we cannot put it right in 5 working days we will simply replace it with a new one, subject to conditions.

 

All the best

 

David

However I understand that a UK agent is soon to be named which should make things better.

 

All the best

 

David

 

Hi David... I had a sit down with Bosch at EuroBike to discuss the problems with the delays and how its effect all UK dealers / brands, which isn't good for anyone.

 

They told me they had no plans for a UK agent, as they handle all other countries from Germany with no problems.

 

So I left the meeting having placed a large order for spares to ensure we can support UK customers and we'll deal with the warranties second hand, is the plan.

 

Now I'm slightly concerned, they're thinking we're the UK agent!!

 

Col.

Hi Col, I have been asked not to mention who they are for the time being, however I can say it is not your good selves, or us!!

 

No one will be surprised though.

 

All the best

 

David

I had a very interesting email from Magura a while back. The main problem is issues over payment. I have to say I have been very dissapointed with their service often something as simple as paying an invoice turns into Mission Impossible. I am all for a UK distributer if they do things correctly i.e. stock all items. It does not matter to me where the service comes from as long as it is good. Items only take a few days to come from Europe. We stock a wide range of Bosch spares so customers do normally not have to wait.

We stock a wide range of Bosch spares so customers do normally not have to wait.

 

Thats exactly the way Bosch are used to dealing I think. They expect dealers to have spares in stock and then order to replace those spares. They are shocked that some UK dealers expect them to hold all their spares for them, with the shop holding nothing.

 

We're going to try to hold some stock too. So any customer can go to their dealer, that dealer should hold some spares. If the dealer hasn't got it, they can ask us, and if we have it we'll supply it next day, or they go to Bosch and it takes a bit longer.

 

The delays with Bosch this year have been caused by demand out stripping supply, so the dealers that invested in stock, had stock... those who simply waited for it to be needed and then ordered - often had to wait.

 

Fingers crossed we're all learning about how best to deal with Bosch and 2015 will be better for all the brands selling Bosch bikes, all the dealers working with the brands and in turn the end consumers will have no issues.

That is why we try to stock a wide variety of items. However when you want an item which you have not got due to selling out you want it asap.

Just to refine any confusion. Bosch will be keeping the parts distribution with Magura in Germany, they are however undertaking more dealer training with many manufacturers in the UK and will also be offering further support of which I have my hands bound to mention any further details... Until its announced, probably early next year.

 

I can confirm it is not you Col and its not you David, so no worries there

 

Martin

I see Bosch have uprated the weedy bearing that has failed on my unit with a much larger one, at around 3 times the width for the new one.

 

Thanks to the trade members for posting what they know/feel able to tell us.

 

The attitude by Bosch to service in the UK seems a bit hit and miss to me.

 

First it's speak to Magura, then we might open our own UK service centre, then we are not, then we are going to do something with the dealers, but that won't be up and running until next year.

 

It's almost as if Bosch lack experience in servicing consumer electricals, but they don't - quite the reverse, they've been servicing drills, washing machines and so on for years.

 

I wonder if the ebike part of the company is not regarded by senior managers as something of an oddity - rather like the general attitude of much of the cycle trade to ebikes in general.

The attitude by Bosch to service in the UK seems a bit hit and miss to me.

 

At least they have the probability of service and available spares. With Panasonic units once out of the two year warranty, no spares, failure means a new unit at circa £500, plus fitting.

.

 

Nic pic

Thanks for reading my blog

 

Martin

Nic pic

Thanks for reading my blog

 

Martin

 

No thank you for the picture. proof if it were needed that my thoughts about this failed bearing not being up to the job are clearly true, seeing as Bosch have seen it fit to fit one about twice the size in the new motor.

 

Had my bike been a Haibike I wonder would it be repaired and back on the road by now?

I'm happy to take onboard criticism and learn from it, but in this case I think we really are actually helping you so I think this dig is a little unfair.

 

Had my bike been a Haibike I wonder would it be repaired and back on the road by now?

 

Please don't confuse your problems. It's not down to the brand of bike, it's because you didn't buy from a store or pay full price. Had you bought your haibike on eBay, it wouldn't be Martin you'd be dealing with, unless he takes on warranty work for dealers who don't want it. So you'd be dealing with haibike direct and I have no idea how helpful they'd be. But I'm guessing they wouldn't have offered you a new motor at cost price, or to fix the bearing for you, and also be offering you a cost price road bike as your looking for one at the moment?

 

 

Had you bought any brand of bike from a bosch dealer (any of them) you would have been looked after. So the problems are not due to the brand of frame. You bought the bike on eBay from a store at a super cheap price from a shop that don't want to help you and we've dropped as a dealer for a number of reasons. Bosch have told us they won't warranty your bearing because you use a dongle. This was not a ktm decision.

 

As its not covered by warranty it's just a case of replacing the bearing at a cost of a few £. As I understand it we have offered to do this for you if you aren't comfortable with the job.

 

I'd be interested to know if whoever sold you the dongle told you it would invalidate your warranty?

 

Col

Edited September 3, 201411 yr by KTM Bike Industries UK

Please don't confuse your problems.They are not due to the brand of frame. You bought the bike on eBay from a store that don't want to help you and we've dropped as a dealer for a number of reasons. Bosch have told us they won't warranty your bearing because you use a dongle. This was not a ktm decision.

 

That's correct, my supplying dealer said they no longer sell KTM bikes, so they directed me to a local dealer when I had the gear issue, and said if there were any problems for my dealer doing the work to contact them. As you were as close as my nearest dealer I thought it best all round to do the work a dealer would have done for the KTM brand myself, to save you having to credit them for the work. Helping to resolve the issue in the most economical way for you, and being just as convenient for me as going to a KTM dealer.

 

As its not covered by warranty it's just a case of replacing the bearing at a cost of a few £. As I understand it we have offered to do this for you if you aren't comfortable with the job.

Which I appreciate.

 

I'd be interested to know if whoever sold you the dongle told you it would invalidate your warranty?

 

Col

 

It isn't a dongle as such.

 

My question was to Martin, because I understand it that he will warranty the bikes he supplies, including those with the dongles which he supplies. So whilst perhaps not a brand thing in the true sense, it's still a relevant question to buyers seeking support for their modified bikes.

 

Bosch don't actually say it will automatically void your warranty.

 

There is also the danger of negating the guarantee and warranty claims on the bike you purchased.

 

I myself do not believe that because my bike goes a bit faster it has increased the wear on that bearing, I have not increased my cadence or pedal loading in any way, in fact as I've already said the loading on the bearing is actually much greater whilst trying to pedal above the assist speed, the soft pedalling that is done with the motor running produces a much lighter loading on that bearing.

 

I wonder what your personal view on the above is Col?

 

Martin whilst not an importer like yourself does seem to offer much better support to his customers than that offered by KTM. It's a little ironic don't you think that a dealer tuning Bosch motors gets to be the centre of Bosch support in the UK.

 

I have no doubt that had I bought a Haibike from Martin he would have supported me. Where as you seem more interested in defending Bosch who have supplied KTM with a sub-standard product, how about a bit of support and loyalty for the people who actually buy your bikes?

 

I think what's done it for me just, is seeing that massive new big bearing on the newer Bosch motor, and I'm feeling a bit hard done by, to be honest. Had my motor had that sized bearing I'd still be happily whizzing along on my KTM, but because they fitted a sub-standard one I'm left with a broken KTM bike.

That's correct, my supplying dealer said they no longer sell KTM bikes, so they directed me to a local dealer when I had the gear issue, and said if there were any problems for my dealer doing the work to contact them. As you were as close as my nearest dealer I thought it best all round to do the work a dealer would have done for the KTM brand myself, to save you having to credit them for the work. Helping to resolve the issue in the most economical way for you, and being just as convenient for me as going to a KTM dealer.

 

It wasn't actually more economical for us. A shimano hub is supposed to go back to the dealer, and they ship to Madison for fixing. Because it came to us, we shipped it, to Madison - which cost us courier work and time.

 

Had it been dealt with by the dealer in the correct manner we'd not even have known about it.

 

 

It isn't a dongle as such.

 

Its a device that alters the way the bike performs, a tuning device.

 

 

My question was to Martin, because I understand it that he will warranty the bikes he supplies,

 

every bike dealer HAS to warranty the bikes they supply. Thats normal behaviour and how your KTM warranty would have been handled had you bought it from an active dealer, and not on clearance via eBay.

 

including those with the dongles which he supplies. So whilst perhaps not a brand thing in the true sense, it's still a relevant question to buyers seeking support for their modified bikes.

 

Every dealer will have different policies on what they warranty for their customers, its then up to them what they fix in house and what they go to the brand about. I suspect if youd taken your KTM back to a dealer they'd have just replaced the bearing and billed you for the work - which is what we're offering to do.

 

Bosch don't actually say it will automatically void your warranty.

 

Yes, they do. I have it in writing from them.

 

 

I myself do not believe that because my bike goes a bit faster it has increased the wear on that bearing, I have not increased my cadence or pedal loading in any way, in fact as I've already said the loading on the bearing is actually much greater whilst trying to pedal above the assist speed, the soft pedalling that is done with the motor running produces a much lighter loading on that bearing.

 

I wonder what your personal view on the above is Col?

 

You're entitled to think that and if I do or do not agree with you is irrelevant. Because you bypassed the shop, you've essentially gone straight to Bosch. Bosch want people to buy their more powerful bikes, so if you buy a cheaper one and tune it up, they say its not designed to cope with the stress, so they won't warranty it. Its only like buying a Golf 2.0 GTI, and remapping it so its a s fast as the Golf R (same engine), and expecting VW to still cover you if you blew the engine.

 

Martin whilst not an importer like yourself does seem to offer much better support to his customers than that offered by KTM. It's a little ironic don't you think that a dealer tuning Bosch motors gets to be the centre of Bosch support in the UK.

 

your comparing apples and eggs. Martin runs a shop, we're a sales agency.

 

If you go to a KTM dealer you'll get just as good service as Martin offers. Just look at guys like eMotion, Electriying Cycles, OnBike, LEBC etc etc... all are great eBike dealers who sell KTM amongst other brands. Had you bought your bike off any of these guys you'd have got just as good service as your imagining you might get from Martin.

 

I have no doubt that had I bought a Haibike from Martin he would have supported me. Where as you seem more interested in defending Bosch who have supplied KTM with a sub-standard product, how about a bit of support and loyalty for the people who actually buy your bikes?

 

Had you bought your KTM off anyone other than eBay I'm sure you'd have had great service. The problem is you didn't. Try email Madison or Haibike direct and see if they let you visit and drop off your problem parts, because thats what we have done for you. We're not the same as a shop.

 

I'll defend Bosch or indeed any company who I feel are being fare. In this case Bosch do many things well and some things need improving. In this case you've worn out a bearing on a bike thats done thousands of miles and has been tuned to go faster. So I think its fare enough that they say its not a manufacturing fault and expect you to fix it. You've already found its possible to replace the bearing, and as I understand it Tom from our place is trying to source a bearing for you for the other side, I believe he even offer to fit it.

 

I think what's done it for me just, is seeing that massive new big bearing on the newer Bosch motor, and I'm feeling a bit hard done by, to be honest. Had my motor had that sized bearing I'd still be happily whizzing along on my KTM, but because they fitted a sub-standard one I'm left with a broken KTM bike.

 

Its not broken, your bearing has worn out and we've offered to fit a new one. Its still perfectly rideable and the work to fit it doesn't take long.

Edited September 3, 201411 yr by KTM Bike Industries UK

It wasn't actually more economical for us. A shimano hub is supposed to go back to the dealer, and they ship to Madison for fixing. Because it came to us, we shipped it, to Madison - which cost us courier work and time.

 

Had it been dealt with by the dealer in the correct manner we'd not even have known about it.

 

So are you saying that in fixing a KTM bike all costs and labour incurred including returning faulty parts are covered by the dealer? or is it not the case that you credit the dealer for the work done as you have recently stated elsewhere on the forum?

So are you saying that in fixing a KTM bike all costs and labour incurred including returning faulty parts are covered by the dealer? or is it not the case that you credit the dealer for the work done as you have recently stated elsewhere on the forum?

 

it depends.... on what the problem is. Madison look after all Shimano warranty in the UK, the bike brands themselves don't handle it and in 99% of cases don't see the products. In most cases with Shimano parts Madison don't cover shipping in warranty. Which is why we had to pay to ship it to them, because we were fulfilling the role of dealer for you. So just as its generally the responsibility of the customer to get the part back to the dealer, its the dealers responsibility to get the part back to the brand.

 

So yes in the case of the Nexus hub, Shimano don't pay for shipping so the dealer if they couldn't fix it would send it to Madison. So in the absence of a dealer we shipped it back for you.

 

When its a labour intensive job, for a KTM part - say something that just needs greasing or fixing inside a hub drive bike, there is a service sheet that dealers get with full instructions of how to do the work, and the amount they can claim from us for doing it. But this is how we work with KTM parts. Shimano / Rockshox / Sram / Bosch etc etc all have different systems and dealers are used to working with all these different systems.

 

Please keep in your mind, we're not a shop. I post on here trying to give you guys input from the big brand level to hopefully help give a different perspective on some issues and a bit of support.

Thanks, as I said at the time I did really appreciate your help with the hub issue.

 

So these shipping costs come out of the profit a dealer makes on selling a bike? In which case all those dealers out there will be hoping none of their generation one Bosch bike customers do as much as 4,000 miles or have strong legs.

 

Perhaps Bosch will cover the shipping costs, where Shimano won't?

The issue of dealers that close or stop selling a brand seems unresolved here. Did you not say the brand would step in to cover the costs in such a situation?

Whilst I didn't pay the RRP for my bike, as you keep reminding me, M&P the dealer will I presume of paid you full price for the bikes, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't keep trying to treat me as a second class citizen. You received the same amount for my bike as anyone who paid full price, I was prepared for the long distance relationship with my supplying dealer, what I wasn't expecting was for them to stop dealing with KTM, that's not my fault.

That's true, but some are more modular than others. On a typical Chinese bike,you can swap motors and controllers for different types and brands. The same with displays, throttles and sensors. Also, you can swap batteries for different types, sizes and brands. The bits are available from a large number of sources, and can typically be unplugged and swapped.The Bosch system has the sensors and controller integrated in the motor and there's no alternatives. There's also no alternatives to the battery and display, and even if yo can get replacements, you still need a dealer to set them up. I guess that the Panasonic and Yamaha systems are similar.

 

I'm thinking more about the guy with a broken bike that doesn't reside next door to a dealer he bought the bike from. Any person competent in basic electrics can fix a Chinese bike, but for a European one, you need special training, equipment and software, so if you live in the back of beyond, you're forked.

 

Think about the guy that wanted a new display for his Bosch bike. Even if he or his local bike shop could get one, it still wouldn't work without the special programming by a Bosch dealer, which they couldn't do without the bike (supposedly), so he had to send his bike a long way to get it fixed.

apologies for dredging up an old thread, but there is another difference - on the average Chinese pedelecs the electric may be usefully DIY, but all the components are shite (zoom brakes, crank arms made from regurgitated soap, rubbish tyres that shred in the presence of glass powder, etc), unless one is very unlucky a newish European pedelecs will survive and require routine maintenance.

Thanks, as I said at the time I did really appreciate your help with the hub issue.

 

So these shipping costs come out of the profit a dealer makes on selling a bike? In which case all those dealers out there will be hoping none of their generation one Bosch bike customers do as much as 4,000 miles or have strong legs.

 

yes, thats generally the case. Now if a KTM frame cracks, or something serious, we don't make the dealer pay for shipped back to Austria, our couriers collect it. So no cost for the dealer. I think Bosch do something similar because the cost of sending a battery back to Germany is pretty high. But for most brands with UK service centres, the shipping cost is the dealers responsibility, most of the time.

 

Perhaps Bosch will cover the shipping costs, where Shimano won't?

 

I think they probably do, but I'm not a dealer with an account with Bosch, so I'm not sure. We've never had to warranty anything with them so they've never collected or indeed we've never shipped anything back.

 

The issue of dealers that close or stop selling a brand seems unresolved here. Did you not say the brand would step in to cover the costs in such a situation?

 

Yes, and your case is a perfect example, we're dealing with you cos the dealer you bought from isn't capable. If the dealer had simply stopped doing the brand, your contract is still with them, so if they are still trading they have to help you. If they have ceased trading any brand, us included would try to find a local dealer to help you, and we'd credit or support them, or as we are in your case we'd do it direct.

 

Whilst I didn't pay the RRP for my bike, as you keep reminding me, M&P the dealer will I presume of paid you full price for the bikes, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't keep trying to treat me as a second class citizen. You received the same amount for my bike as anyone who paid full price, I was prepared for the long distance relationship with my supplying dealer, what I wasn't expecting was for them to stop dealing with KTM, that's not my fault.

 

Fair point and I'm sorry. But yes, you should still be dealing with M&P, even though they have stopped doing KTM, they are still trading - us helping you is because I know for you and them sorting this out would be a nightmare, so we're trying to make it easier for everyone - except us actually.

 

By buying on eBay, I'm not trying to suggest your a second class citizen but you have missed out the dealer bit of the supply chain, and its them that should be looking after you as that's their role in the supply chain. You'd be shocked at how little we make per bike... ie by doing the work and couier of your hub and me replying to you messages on here about the bearings we've already made a loss on that bike sale. M&P still made the cash out of the sale and they've walked away providing no service. Hence why we stopped supplying them.

Edited September 3, 201411 yr by KTM Bike Industries UK

ie by doing the work and couier of your hub and me replying to you messages on here about the bearings we've already made a loss on that bike sale.

 

I did not realise that in doing that for me it would have cost you money. Given that the only other option would have been to send my wheel to M&P I'd have been prepared to pay the shipping costs. So thank you again for helping me in that instance.

 

Don't confuse protracted debates that you have engaged with on here, with actually dealing with my claim. Tom is the only person I've had official contact with, just three or four emails.

 

Now you could just have sent my Bosch motor back to Bosch at what you've just said is probably no cost to yourself. I'd have dropped it off with you, if you'd asked I'd have even boxed it for you. So that would have been one initial reply to my first email, one to confirm when I could drop it off, then one more to tell me when to collect.

 

My problem would have been resolved quickly and efficiently and I'd have been singing the praises of KTM again and busy racking up another 4,000 miles on my KTM bike.

 

This thread wouldn't be here, along with all the negative KTM PR. What with the liability thread and this one KTM and e-bikes in general have started to leave a very sour taste in my mouth, the fun of e-bikes has all but been sucked out for me. I shall probably return to normal cycling, where I'll be able to cruise along at 20 to 30 mph without a worry.

I did not realise that in doing that for me it would have cost you money. Given that the only other option would have been to send my wheel to M&P I'd have been prepared to pay the shipping costs. So thank you again for helping me in that instance.

 

Don't confuse protracted debates that you have engaged with on here, with actually dealing with my claim. Tom is the only person I've had official contact with, just three or four emails.

 

Now you could just have sent my Bosch motor back to Bosch at what you've just said is probably no cost to yourself. I'd have dropped it off with you, if you'd asked I'd have even boxed it for you. So that would have been one initial reply to my first email, one to confirm when I could drop it off, then one more to tell me when to collect.

 

My problem would have been resolved quickly and efficiently and I'd have been singing the praises of KTM again and busy racking up another 4,000 miles on my KTM bike.

 

This thread wouldn't be here, along with all the negative KTM PR. What with the liability thread and this one KTM and e-bikes in general have started to leave a very sour taste in my mouth, the fun of e-bikes has all but been sucked out for me. I shall probably return to normal cycling, where I'll be able to cruise along at 20 to 30 mph without a worry.

curiously, I find myself in a very similar position than this, but with woosh (having had to consult a laywer, i'd rather not say anything more), BUT one positive outcome from it was realising that I may just be able to build my own pedelec - if you pick a good base bicycle and import, say a bpm2 from BMS the total cost can be as low as less than 4 to 5 hundred pounds, which might make a warranty less pivotal (and to a degree one might know what one is getting)

BUT one positive outcome from it was realising that I may just be able to build my own pedelec - if you pick a good base bicycle and import, say a bpm2 from BMS the total cost can be as low as less than 4 to 5 hundred pounds, which might make a warranty less pivotal (and to a degree one might know what one is getting)

 

Yes in your case at that price point I'd also go the DIY route. You'll end up with a much better bike.

curiously, I find myself in a very similar position than this, but with woosh (having had to consult a laywer, i'd rather not say anything more), BUT one positive outcome from it was realising that I may just be able to build my own pedelec - if you pick a good base bicycle and import, say a bpm2 from BMS the total cost can be as low as less than 4 to 5 hundred pounds, which might make a warranty less pivotal (and to a degree one might know what one is getting)

 

what is your problem with woosh? I thought you sorted out the pedelec sensor?