Also the fact an spedelec... and it has the brakes needed to stop a bike of that weight capable of that speed.

 

Never really understood this. My pedelec assists to 25kph, an spedelec assists to 45kph... and both can easily reach 50kph or above unassisted going downhill, for example. Therefore, both need brakes that don't crumble to dust when slowing down from more than 50kph so why would spedelecs need better brakes?

 

This is a genuine question to benefit my knowledge - I don't have an axe to grind in this debate as I'll make my own informed decisions.

 

Also, my pedelec has XT brakes which are better than some brakes on spedelecs for whatever that's worth...

Holy cow, I haven't signed in for 6 months and KTM industries still bolloxxing on about his dongle. Kind of destroying this forum, especially the 'off road' section.

The cat's back lol

 

...and didn't you know there's no such thing as 'off road'

Never really understood this. My pedelec assists to 25kph, an spedelec assists to 45kph... and both can easily reach 50kph or above unassisted going downhill, for example. Therefore, both need brakes that don't crumble to dust when slowing down from more than 50kph so why would spedelecs need better brakes?

 

Kidology I reckon.

Holy cow, I haven't signed in for 6 months and KTM industries still bolloxxing on about his dongle. Kind of destroying this forum, especially the 'off road' section.

 

Actually it's the obsession about S-pedelecs and dongled bikes which is destroying this forum. They are both illegal to use in the UK so what is the point of conversations about them.

Behind the scenes a number of trade members are trying to make representations to trading standards and the police to get rid of these useless machines.

They are distorting the market and because there is little fear of prosecution most customers see no risk in owning one,but the number of motoring offences that are being committed with their use would soon clear the UK of them if the police started to action prosecutions.

Maybe the release of the new regs in January 2016 will cause a catalyst for the police to start doing their job properly.

Who would buy one if there was a real risk of prosecution and the illegal bike ending up in the crusher.

It seems that this forum is the meeting place for those who want to discuss these illegals swamped by members who want to know and discuss legal bikes that have a use.

KudosDave

Hardly "destroying the forum" we are posting in the s-pedelecs / off road section of the forum which was set up for just these sort of conversations. Can i suggest that if you don't like it feel free to stick to the other sections of the forum. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that other people aren't entitled to their own opinion just as you are.

By clicking on the "what's new" we get all the messages. Regular people will do this and therefore also see the boring and monotonous same old thing repeatedly being aired. So not really new is it.

Actually it's the obsession about S-pedelecs and dongled bikes which is destroying this forum. They are both illegal to use in the UK so what is the point of conversations about them.

Behind the scenes a number of trade members are trying to make representations to trading standards and the police to get rid of these useless machines.

Makes me wonder with all Col / KTM's postings how he justifies showing them at the NEC with UK prices displayed then.

 

At least a dongled bike becomes instantly 100% legal just by removing the dongle. Can't see the s-pedelecs / 350w eMTBs bikes being legal anywhere if we accept his arguments.

 

Also Dave don't think this forum is restricted to UK users is it?

By clicking on the "what's new" we get all the messages. Regular people will do this and therefore also see the boring and monotonous same old thing repeatedly being aired. So not really new is it.

Doesn't it still tell you what section of the forum the post is in? If so, have you tried just scrolling on by the sections that you find monotonous and boring? [emoji6]

Hardly "destroying the forum" we are posting in the s-pedelecs / off road section of the forum which was set up for just these sort of conversations. Can i suggest that if you don't like it feel free to stick to the other sections of the forum. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that other people aren't entitled to their own opinion just as you are.

 

You are correct.....we need a new section entitled 'those who want to use illegal dongled or S-class bikes in the U.K.'

The problem is that these bikes are growing,Stromer 500 watt bikes are being imported into the UK,it would be easy to build 800 watt bikes from China.

Ok so you have paid £3500 for your S-class e-bike and you are the unfortunate guy who does get stopped by the police and told you cannot use it in the UK. I suspect the initial reaction would be to moan at the dealer,he won't be interested because he has told you that you have to get it registered as a light moped ,I don't think it is possible to register an S-class bike as a light moped. So you are left with an e-bike that you either continue to use illegally or try to ship back to Germany to sell it or scrap it.

We get some 30% of customers into our dealers who want to buy S-class bikes,we are fed up explaining why we cannot sell them,they go elsewhere to others who don't care.

But ultimately we may be doing them a favour,it only needs a few prosecutions and the police to understand the law for these S-class bikes to have nil value.

KudosDave

People often say that there have been no prosecutions for using illegal e bikes but the truth is no one really knows that. Most magistrates courts are very badly reported now with the near death of local papers, and unless the person prosecuted is a member of a forum like this one which very few e bike riders are, it would go under the radar.

 

I know people are stopped when riding scooter type e bikes all the time because they look like petrol scooters without number plates, and sometimes the policeman doesn’t understand about ebikes and tries to give a ticket. But many very overpowered e bikes don’t look at all like bicycles either, so if they were stopped what would dibble make of them?

 

Then there is the case a few years ago where a policeman tried to prosecute a 250W bike because the letter of the UK law then said they were illegal. In that case we all know he got called off, but it does prove that some policemen are keen to prosecute electric bikes; and he would not get called off if the bike was illegal.

You are correct.....we need a new section entitled 'those who want to use illegal dongled or S-class bikes in the U.K.'

Now you're just being childish.

 

At the end of the day, whatever topics get talked about in this forum, it still brings potential custom to the traders who advertise here.

 

Someone might have been directed to this site after a Google search on 'where can I buy a fast electric bike'.

 

They may or may not already know the legalities of electric bikes, but it would be better for you to concentrate posts on other positive aspects of your bikes, than to go the legal/illegal route. Convince them they don't need a fast bike to get the fun factor.

 

I'll be honest, I am seriously considering swapping my BBS02 next year, for a totally legal ready built bike. The reason being, that my off-road (tongue in cheek) skills have advanced to the stage of needing a bike with torque sensing PAS and better components.

 

I had singled out a couple of bikes from Haibike and KTM, but unfortunately my selection has dropped to just the Haibike, for reasons members can probably figure out.

 

Sad, but true

Edited November 7, 201510 yr by Fordulike

Now you're just being childish.

 

At the end of the day, whatever topics get talked about in this forum, it still brings potential custom to the traders who advertise here.

 

Someone might have been directed to this site after a Google search on 'where can I buy a fast electric bike'.

 

They may or may not already know the legalities of electric bikes, but it would be better for you to concentrate posts on other positive aspects of your bikes, than to go the legal/illegal route. Convince them they don't need a fast bike to get the fun factor.

 

I'll be honest, I am seriously considering swapping my BBS02 next year, for a totally legal ready built bike. The reason being, that my off-road (tongue in cheek) skills have advanced to the stage of needing a bike with torque sensing PAS and better components.

 

I had singled out a couple of bikes from Haibike and KTM, but unfortunately my selection has dropped to just the Haibike, for reasons members can probably figure out.

 

Sad, but true

 

Do you mean that the Haibike is easier to 'dongle' than the KTM.? We were having a conversation at the NEC on the Haibike stand about dongles and the manager of the electric transport shop in Cambridge said that they fit more dongles to KTM than Haibike.....

KudosDave

Do you mean that the Haibike is easier to 'dongle' than the KTM.? We were having a conversation at the NEC on the Haibike stand about dongles and the manager of the electric transport shop in Cambridge said that they fit more dongles to KTM than Haibike.....

KudosDave

 

I expect he means buying a KTM is not an attractive prospect because of Col's posts on here and general attitude.

 

A reasonable warranty claim on a non-dongle effected part of a KTM bike will be rejected by the sound of it.

 

There might be a fighting chance of getting such a claim paid on another make of bike.

Do you mean that the Haibike is easier to 'dongle' than the KTM.? We were having a conversation at the NEC on the Haibike stand about dongles and the manager of the electric transport shop in Cambridge said that they fit more dongles to KTM than Haibike.....

KudosDave

No dongles, totally standard. I would never get past 15mph on the areas I ride and feel that better power control (torque sensor) and far superior bike components would suit me better.

 

... and yes, Rob wins the prize

[quote="Fordulike, post: 282243, member: 3287"

 

... and yes, Rob wins the prize

 

Ta.

 

Let me know if you want a whirl on my Rose - it would give you a good idea of the ride of a Bosch bike.

Let me know if you want a whirl on my Rose - it would give you a good idea of the ride of a Bosch bike.

Thank goodness you ended that with confirmation it's your bike you're talking about.

 

I may well take you up on that offer when the weather's not so miserable.

Thanks Rob

Never really understood this. My pedelec assists to 25kph, an spedelec assists to 45kph... and both can easily reach 50kph or above unassisted going downhill, for example. Therefore, both need brakes that don't crumble to dust when slowing down from more than 50kph so why would spedelecs need better brakes?

 

This is a genuine question to benefit my knowledge - I don't have an axe to grind in this debate as I'll make my own informed decisions.

 

Also, my pedelec has XT brakes which are better than some brakes on spedelecs for whatever that's worth...

 

I can't argue with any of that... and I'm not saying an sPedelec "needs" better brakes... all I'm saying is that to be classed as a sPedelec the eBike does need different brakes - I probably shouldn't have used the phrase better". I've raced MTB Downhill offroad in the wet at World Championship level and used standard Shimano mountain bike brakes. I've also raced legally on the road on top end road bikes with Carbon wheels which have shockingly poor stopping power. However as I'm sure many many of you will appreciate, law and common sense are not always that closely linked.

Makes me wonder with all Col / KTM's postings how he justifies showing them at the NEC with UK prices displayed then.

 

At least a dongled bike becomes instantly 100% legal just by removing the dongle. Can't see the s-pedelecs / 350w eMTBs bikes being legal anywhere if we accept his arguments.

 

We take an sPedelec to the NEC so we can have a conversation about it, and they can legally be sold (unlike dongled bikes, which can't legally be sold). However we've taken the moral stand point that we'll only sell an sPedelec if someone can prove they can use it legally... so far 0 sales.

ill get 1 when i need a new bike

John,

 

The waiver, while a bit over dramatic, was not daft.

 

As I said, possession/sale of the modded bike is not illegal.

 

The waiver, presumably saying the buyer would not use the bike illegally, does offer the dealer extra protection.

 

Not that the dealer needs it.

 

He Rob... I know I just posted that this was incorrect and I see you weren't happy with that... so hopefully I can explain below why I said what I did,

 

 

The waiver, while a bit over dramatic, was not daft.

 

A waiver is a bit daft - depending on the wording, for both parties as neither would really be protected by it. They generally aren't worth the paper they are written on, unless written by a solicitor, which I don't this customer or the bike should would be prepared to do.

 

As I said, possession/sale of the modded bike is not illegal.

 

Possession isn't but sale of a modded bike is very much illegal because the mod (in this case a dongle) removes its classification as a bicycle, so its no longer CE certified, so can't legally be sold.

 

The waiver, presumably saying the buyer would not use the bike illegally, does offer the dealer extra protection.

 

Not that the dealer needs it.

 

No it doesn't because the dealer will have sold an illegal product, so as clearly started in trading standard laws, the dealer, would not be protected - and they do VERY much need to be worried if they are selling dongled bikes. Which is why Specialised, Cube, us and since the weekend Haibike and I suspect Scott by the end of the week won't let dealers sell dongled bikes.

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/product-liability-and-safety-law

Colin,

 

The sale of the modded bike is not illegal.

 

It is no longer a legal bike, and cannot be sold as such, but it can be sold as an undescribed item, or even a work of modern art.

 

Sounds stupid, but you will know some collectors do hang vintage bikes on a wall, rather than ride them.

 

I fully accept that won't happen in this case, but it isn't up to the retailer to nanny the customer, partly because the retailer can't control what the customer does with the item.

 

The sale of a knife to an adult does not become illegal if the adult later stabs someone with it.

ill get 1 when i need a new bike

 

Why don't you just buy one of these?

 

http://www.ktmfreeride-e.com/en

Colin,

 

The sale of the modded bike is not illegal.

 

It is no longer a legal bike, and cannot be sold as such, but it can be sold as an undescribed item, or even a work of modern art.

 

Sounds stupid, but you will know some collectors do hang vintage bikes on a wall, rather than ride them.

 

I fully accept that won't happen in this case, but it isn't up to the retailer to nanny the customer, partly because the retailer can't control what the customer does with the item.

 

The sale of a knife to an adult does not become illegal if the adult later stabs someone with it.

 

What are you basing this assumption on? Why don't you speak to Trading Standards and ask them if selling a bicycle that doesn't have a CE Certificate in the UK is illegal.... because it is! Do you really think the ... "its not a bicycle its a work of art", line works in law? Because it doesn't.

 

If you sell a bicycle, and its not CE Certified... you're breaking the law, and a liable to a whole load of risks.

don't you over dramatize a bit? the bike is CE marked, the dongle is CE marked and made for the bike. Fitting the dongle to the bike does not automatically void both CE labels.

Why don't you just buy one of these?

 

http://www.ktmfreeride-e.com/en

 

lol no thanks